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Deb Grabetz
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Posted: Sat Oct 18th, 2008 13:01 |
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- In the opening paragraphs of Ch.5 the author shows that Maisie had gone to great lengths to find out about Celia Davenham's parentage and past history, along with tailing her outings. Was Maisie's probing all to build a case for Mr Davenham? Did she have another motive?
It seems to me that a private investigator would also have to have to posess a very inquisitve, almost nosey side to them in order to be good at their practice. From what I've read so far, Maisie has certainly take more of a "personal" interest in Celia than she would have needed to respond to Mr. Davenham's original reason for hiring a private investigator, which was to find out where she was spending her time.
It was obvious early on, that Celia was visiting a dead mans grave and not much of a threat to Mr. Davenham? Right? Maybe not, as one paragraph states "and in going forward with her marriage to Christopher Davenham, she had tried to bury her feelings for Vincent at a time when emotions were running high throughout the country. But the ordinary rituals of marriage to the seemingly bland Christopher Davenham could not erase the memory of Vincent, the her of her imagination" Her memories definitely were posing a threat to her marriage, although a bit different than an actual affair would be. This was an "affair of the heart." I believe Maisie realized this the more she learned from Celia about Vincent and in order to bring some closure to the situation felt it important to follow through, more like a counselor than a private investigator. She may have been able to relate to what Celia had been through emotionally from her time spent as a nurse.
2. Towards the close of Maisie's afternoon tea with Ceclia Davenham, Maisie recalls the counsel of her teacher Maurice Blanche. Maurice likened listening to someones deeply private words to “The story takes up space like a knot in a piece of wood. If the knot is removed a hole remains. This hole Maisie is our responsibility. We must ask ourselves how will this hole we have opened be filled.” These words create a deep resposibility for Maisie and all who are confidants. Are these words realistic in lifes many complex situations? Should we feel responsible? Did we learn anything from Maisie's attempt to “Fill the Hole?”
I really enjoyed this analogy. I believe this happens often in life. Part of what I touched on above, Maisie's involvement in wanting to take her investigation farther and encourage Christopher Devanham to help his wife get past the horror of losing Vincent to the war, his disfiguration and death by sharing this with his wife. If you notice when Maisie asked the question, have you ever talked with your wife about this, Christopher Devenham answered no. Maisie, I believe was trying to help Christopher, fill this hole in his wifes life. It's no wonder that his wife was so melancholy with her life after Vincents death.
Celia seemed to cling to those weekly visits to Vincents grave, rather than move on with her life.....In that instance, I feel we experience this so often in life....we are constantly going through changes in our lives...change is inevitable. We all have those holes that are left to fill, while some have an easy time of filling holes, others do not. Yet, the past can sometimes seem much more flawless, where we forget some of the pain associated with things and just as Celia did, we paint a rosier picture in our minds than what it was really like and thus cling to the past. In other words, we hang on to the good, which keeps us from moving forward to the future. Isn't there something said about, when a person passes, everyone forgets their faults???
This very same thing happened to me when I left my job a few years ago. I had worked in Customer Service/Sales for the same billion $ company I had been with since a young adult. I was very burned out to say the least. So without a doubt I was ready to try something new. After I left, I can remember missing my job for quite some time,almost pining for my "loss". Of course, it was also about all the people I had interacted with for many years but I kept in touch with those that meant the most to me I had totally forgotten at this point, why I left in the first place! I forgot about the 10 hours days, the non-stop ringing of the phones, the quality issues, the deadlines, reports, customer complaints, pressure of reaching quotas when the economy was struggling, the heavy workloads, change over the years of the company and becoming more bureaucratic, etc...I had a hole to fill myself and it was up to me to fill that hole! This was five years ago and today I would not want to be in that environment for any amount of money! I guess I'm a bit of an optimist and this is why I tend to lean this way to begin with. My husband changes jobs and moves on with seemingly no difficulty, well so he says!
3. The subject of Vincent was so painful for Celia Davenham to speak of, though it seemed he was never for from her mind. How were thoughts of the past affecting Celia Davenhams present life? Any idea's why she would open up to Maisie, a stranger?
Well, again I think I've covered much of this in my previous post but as far as opening up to Maisie? Celia surely needed someone to share this ordeal with. It was obvious that her husband was not of the kind to take much of an interest in her feelings, otherwise it would not have taken Maise to bring this to his attention. It also appears that Celia was not the type to open up to her husband for some support. Does this seem to be a common thread in life??? Any thoughts from anyone??
4. As Billy recounts the stories of Vincent he has learned from his mates, he begins to recall his experiences of war. It is well known now what happened to those frightened young boys who froze during combat. The Military has improved on their understanding of situations since then. Do you think they have come far enough?
I don't think we can ever come far enough when it comes to the men and women who protect our freedom.
5. Vincent stood against the establishment. Against condemnationg of fear. In doing so what qualities, or lack of qualities,did he show?
6. Maisie's gentle deliverence of her report to Christopher Davenham left him with much soul searching to do. Maisie also respectfully brings her aquaintance with Celia to an end after learning all she could about Vincents life. This investigaion although concluded, leaves Maisie with a feeling of unfinished business. Does this feeling remind you a of anything in your life experiences?
Yes, I think we all have these unfinished business experiences in our lives, but I am thankful that for me they are few and far between. I try to move along as best as possible and be thankful for the blessings and not the challenges. When it comes down to it, most of us have many more blessings in our lives than we do challenges!
7) Any comments about the characters or the plot that you would like to express?
Just that I'm totally enjoying this read! Thanks Lynn for moderating! Deb
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 05:53 |
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Questions for Chapters 5 -7
- In the opening paragraphs of Ch.5 the author shows that Maisie had gone to great lengths to find out about Celia Davenham's parentage and past history, along with tailing her outings. Was Maisie's probing all to build a case for Mr Davenham? Did she have another motive?
Maisie's intuition told her there was more to this story than an unfaithful wife. I don't think Maisie needed to probe into Celia whole life story if she was only trying to prove her faithfulness. Something about Celia Davenham caused her to want to find out about Celia's life. Maisie needed to find out because the circumstances of the case were somehow linked to what had happened in her own background, something that remained unresolved and she needed to resolve her own issues too.
- Towards the close of Maisie's afternoon tea with Celia Davenham, Maisie recalls the counsel of her teacher Maurice Blanche. Maurice likened listening to someones deeply private words to “The story takes up space like a knot in a piece of wood. If the knot is removed a hole remains. This hole Maisie is our responsibility. We must ask ourselves how will this hole we have opened be filled.” These words create a deep responsibility for Maisie and all who are confidants. Are these words realistic in life's many complex situations? Should we feel responsible? Did we learn anything from Maisie's attempt to “Fill the Hole?”
I'm not sure that 'filling the hole' is realistic in every situation, I think there are some situations that just need to be left for the person who has confided in us to meditate over and come to terms with in the fullness of time. I'm a great believer that rules do not always cover every situation and that events should be viewed on , circumstances surrounding the event. Sometimes we just can't 'fill the hole,' we may feel upset and guilty that this is not possible, but that is how the situation is.
There are times when we can help to make the person feel better as Maisie did with both Celia and Billy when she introduced the idea of co loured materials to Celia, and coloured walls to Billy. It lightened their load and it lightened Maisie's load.
Yes, I did learn something from Maisie attempt to 'fill the hole.' I realised it didn't always need the situation to be talked about more, but that a distraction could be very helpful. I wish I had her wisdom!- The subject of Vincent was so painful for Celia Davenham to speak of, though it seemed he was never for from her mind. How were thoughts of the past affecting Celia Davenhams present life? Any idea's why she would open up to Maisie, a stranger?
Celia was stuck in the past Vincent had been her first love, his loss affected her deeply. If she had been able to confide in her husband she may have realised how much her affections now belonged to her husband and that she had to let memories of Vincent go. Celia's husband seemed remote and not able to show the affection he really felt for her. I think Christopher's aloofness and seeming indifference pushed her deeper into her believing she still loved Vincent. It made her so deeply unhappy that she went to talk to the grave of the dead Vincent.
It was easy to open up to Maisie as she had been seen visiting a grave too. Celia thought she would understand and Maisie did understand, enabling Celia to open the flood gates
- As Billy recounts the stories of Vincent he has learned from his mates, he begins to recall his experiences of war. It is well known now what happened to those frightened young boys who froze during combat. The Military has improved on their understanding of situations since then. Do you think they have come far enough?
I know very little about the Military but I was appalled when I first found out soldiers were executed for abandoning their posts. I know Britain has now recognised it's injustice to those soldiers most of whom were still boys. I have this image of the Military being some sort of bullyboy institution where not every young recruit survives. A institution that is lacking in humanity and understanding which can leave some young men scared for life. Have I been watching to much T.V.? I know there must be discipline, but surely there is room for justice and humanity too.
Please feel free to correct me, I would be only to happy to be convinced otherwise.- Vincent stood against the establishment. Against condemnation of fear. In doing so what qualities, or lack of qualities, did he show?
I think Vincent showed great bravery standing up for his soldiers against the bigwigs of the time. It was an age of rank, whether you were in the army or not. There was the rank of officer and for civilians there was the rank of class. To try to move out of those distinct categories was a big rebellion against the set social system. Even when I grew up in the 50's the social system was not differed from to much even if it did only exist in people's minds, ( but I think it was more than that) it had become a mindset. It took a lot of hard work from those who saw the unfairness of the system before changes were made and progress is still being made. Vincent was not only brave he was a champion of the ordinary man, a leader a visionary. He probably did a lot of damage to his own career in the process.- Maisie's gentle deliverance of her report to Christopher Davenham left him with much soul searching to do. Maisie also respectfully brings her acquaintance with Celia to an end after learning all she could about Vincents life. This investigation although concluded, leaves Maisie with a feeling of unfinished business. Does this feeling remind you a of anything in your life experiences?
Sometimes it seems years before experiences we have been through seem to be resolved which leaves us with a feeling, all is not over yet. This has happened to me on occasions when the outcome of an experience is not what I want it to be. Perhaps it is the breaking up of a friendship where a lot of misunderstandings have occurred. There is always the hope that if we could come together and explore the misunderstanding our friendship would be restored. It may take years to close the book on that feeling and know that by now we have all grown, learned some great lessons of life and moved on. I think then we feel a closure and can but the whole thing behind us, remembering that person for the good things they added to our lives and the lessons they left behind.
Sometimes that feeling that all is not over yet may end in the out come we had hoped for and that is a lesson too.
7) Any comments about the characters or the plot that you would like to express?
Is Maisie a to good to be true character? Everything she does and says brings out the best in people. So far she has 'never put her foot in it,' how wonderful to be able to assess people and situations like that. The other characters seem real but I have only met one person who comes somewhere near to Maisie's character. I am looking forward to following her through the rest of the book to see what else I can learn about human behaviour and how to handle it.
I hope you are enjoying this book. We miss you Audrey and hope all is well with you.
Take care, Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sun Oct 19th, 2008 09:03 |
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Hi Deb,
This sentence you quoted was a good pick, "and in going forward with her marriage to Christopher Davenham, she had tried to bury her feelings for Vincent at a time when emotions were running high throughout the country. But the ordinary rituals of marriage to the seemingly bland Christopher Davenham could not erase the memory of Vincent, the her of her imagination."
It gives a lot of information I had missed. I had wondered about her real relationship with Vincent and if it was one sided, blown up out of all proportion by a young girl. Vincent may have viewed her a his friend charming little sister. Did I miss something there?
As emotions throughout the country were running high, I suspect there were a lot of people who married in haste. not really knowing their spouse to well. Christopher may have been bland but he seemed constant even though he could not fill his wifes needs. With Maisies help he does try first by taking Celia to the theatre. Can love now blossom like ashes, that can emege into a flame.
As you say 'when a person passes faults are forgotten.
The points you brought up on change and missing your work collegues were enlightening too. I feel that loss and my husband has no problems with job changes either. He didn't even seem to miss his collegues when he retired. Amazing how men and women can see things in a different light. I guess that is how we keep each other grounded.
I'm glad you are enjoying the book, so am I,
Take care,
Lynn
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eClaire
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 02:19 |
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1. In the opening paragraphs of Ch.5 the author shows that Maisie had gone to great lengths to find out about Celia Davenham's parentage and past history, along with tailing her outings. Was Maisie's probing all to build a case for Mr Davenham? Did she have another motive?
Seems like normal probing to me given the fact that she considers that she is working for all involved and not just the person paying her. She's trying to gather enough information for more intuitive guesses rather than just making assumptions based on what Mr. Davenham told her.
2. Towards the close of Maisie's afternoon tea with Ceclia Davenham, Maisie recalls the counsel of her teacher Maurice Blanche. Maurice likened listening to someones deeply private words to “The story takes up space like a knot in a piece of wood. If the knot is removed a hole remains. This hole Maisie is our responsibility. We must ask ourselves how will this hole we have opened be filled.” These words create a deep resposibility for Maisie and all who are confidants. Are these words realistic in lifes many complex situations? Should we feel responsible? Did we learn anything from Maisie's attempt to “Fill the Hole?”
Well, I don't believe that the hole itself is Maisie's responsibility, but I do believe that asking one's self "How will this hole we have opened be filled?" is a good question for any confidant, and I am thinking of having it tatooed to my arm today because I have done more than my share of opening holes without a lot of forethought about how the hole might be filled. Having as I have had--before reading this--a great belief that most people will fill the hole in the way that best suits them. Some do so with ego--personality needs--and others through soul growth. But there's always the chance that someone will wake up and discover that ego's been in charge and perhaps it is time to give his/her soul a chance in the driver seat.
Did I learn anything? Reading this makes me see how knowing me might be a bit scary and how it might be important for me (since I'm not in the PI business) to only engage in such behavior--hole opening--with people that I know are committed to and somewhat adept at soul growth. Otherwise, I could be doing more harm than good. (Ooooh...such an ugly thing to realize about myself.)
Of course, I used to have to create and take care of the hole even by personality-driven folk as a mediator, and believe me, a lot of strategy/mental and emotional energy went into that during individual caucuses to help people decide how to behave in the mediation session in a way that would support their stated goals (even they really believed their stated goals). People frequently would act in ways that were against their best interests in the sessions, driven purely by pain. Being able to speak about the pain during the session could be good, but sabotaging themselves or a win/win outcome with hurtful behavior was usually not beneficial (so I often had to do a little reality testing, which required opening holes and helping the folk to fill them themselves with behavior that better matched their goals).
3. The subject of Vincent was so painful for Celia Davenham to speak of, though it seemed he was never for from her mind. How were thoughts of the past affecting Celia Davenhams present life? Any idea's why she would open up to Maisie, a stranger?
Celia's past is strangling her. Opening up to a stranger allows her the freedom expressing herself while not being judged...at least she senses that Maisie is not judging her.
4. As Billy recounts the stories of Vincent he has learned from his mates, he begins to recall his experiences of war. It is well known now what happened to those frightened young boys who froze during combat. The Military has improved on their understanding of situations since then. Do you think they have come far enough?
I don't know. I do know from my reading (at least I think I know...I could be wrong and would welcome a correction) that suicide seems to be at an all time high for US soldiers fighting the Iraq war. For whatever reason, the idea of being shot by your own side because you could not move due to fear and committing suicide while in a war feels linked to me. I can't explain why, as I haven't spent much time thinking about it.
5. Vincent stood against the establishment. Against condemnation of fear. In doing so what qualities, or lack of qualities, did he show?
Understanding, courage, compassion.
6. Maisie's gentle deliverence of her report to Christopher Davenham left him with much soul searching to do. Maisie also respectfully brings her aquaintance with Celia to an end after learning all she could about Vincent's life. This investigaion although concluded, leaves Maisie with a feeling of unfinished business. Does this feeling remind you a of anything in your life experiences?
Well, there's unfinished business because the author is suggesting that there might be something not quite right about the operation of the farm that Vincent moved to. (For the life of me I don't remember her delivering her report to Christopher. She does this before the end of Chapter 7?)
Any time anyone leaves our lives don't we feel some sense of unfinished business, particularly if the person is still alive. I feel that way about books sometime as well. I think this is why we like all those little typewritten tales at the end of some movies that tell us where the various characters are 5 or 10 years down the road.
7) Any comments about the characters or the plot that you would like to express?
No...just that I am enjoying the book tremendously and will read the series as she writes them. Last edited on Sat Oct 25th, 2008 02:23 by eClaire
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eClaire
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 03:05 |
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Having written my responses I am now going back and reading the gem's contained in my fellow book club member's responses.
Like this one from Lynn, about not always having to fill the holes: "I realised it didn't always need the situation to be talked about more, but that a distraction could be very helpful. I wish I had her wisdom!" I've done this some in my life and it has worked. Normally, if you can believe it , I over process . Mostly I over process because it really gets my goat when someone opens a really huge hole in me because s/he felt vulnerable about something, someone, some situation--that is, ripping a hole in me served the purpose of reaching out and hurting someone. You know, instead of reaching out and touching someone, you run into some people whose approach is to reach out and hurt someone when they feel hurt? Sort of like the husband who yells at the wife, who then paddles the kid, who then kicks the dog, and I can see that the whole thing started with whatever caused the husband to come home in a mood to yell at the wife. I don't like getting hurt as blow back. Ugh! My processing, however, is usually a big waste of time because the kind of people who are like the kid who kicked the dog mostly just want folk like me to "SHUT UP." Yeah, distraction can be better and not only in these situations.
Also, Deb's recognizing that we have holes that open up within ourselves with even seemingly normal changes. Not only might we experience cognitive dissonance, but we also might experience significant grieving even if the decision to move on and the hole it created was a good one for our development.
Deb asked whether it was a common thread that folk are often not "the type" to open up for support. In a moment of true cynicism, the other day I decided that the saying that you can never really know another person is only true because most people truly do not want to be known. It's too scary to be truly vulnerable and known. Most people wear masks, project the person they want you to see (a false self), while others often see what they want rather than what is there (true or false), and then they keep the real them to themselves. Better to end marriages, leave jobs, end long-time friendships when one's true self is in danger of being exposed. It's as if most people believe that others will truly not like them or will stop loving them if the other really knew who they were. No wonder so many people feel lonely. No wonder so many people are addicted to drugs, alcohol, new love, etc.
Claire
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 05:14 |
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Hi Claire,
I always learn a lot from your posts and this one is no exception. Perhaps you didn't get the report Maisie gave to Christopher because my reading schedule wasn't clear enough. It is included in ch 7 which I read. The next schedule will be ch 11 -14 inclusive, sorry about that.
I can see how hard the job you had was and how deep it made you dig to help people. Those type of jobs are such an emotional drain. Both you and Deb bring up such good points and it is fascinating to see how we all have a different grasp on situations. Fascinating that we can learn from each other.
Some of these concepts come from deep emotional trauma and I like the idea of the soul taking over, leaving ego and personality behind. I think sometimes we don't even know ourselves very well so it is hard for others to know us, hard to take off the mask.
I am enjoying this book too, it is rather deep, but so worth while reading as I am questioning so much. The author has a great understanding of the human condition.
Take care, Lynn.
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2008 11:04 |
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Questions for chapters 8-10.
1) What are your views on the character of Maurice Blanche?
2) When Maurice escorted Lady Rowen on the excursion out of her pond, he broke their silence with the words, “For women to have a place of account in their society, they must have a political voice. And having one Queen on the throne in the modern age does not constitute such a voice. But Rowan with you the voice always comes from a safe place, does it not.” What did Maurice mean? What more do you think he wanted of Rowan?
3) We turn to the grieving household of Frankie Dobbs and his daughter Maisie. Frankie's dreams for his only daughter shattered. What qualities in Frankie's character kept him grounded? Are these qualities rare today?
4) As we read these chapters a few new characters are introduced. Can you relate to any of these characters? If so how?
5) This story takes place where the gap in the 'Social Divide' was huge. There were the 'Upstairs' and the 'Downstairs' - the 'Gentry' and the 'Servants'. What could be the consequences for Lady Rowan and Maisie, as Maisie's talent is nurtured?
6) Did you see any new themes emerging?
7) Is Maisie a 'Guinea Pig' or do you think the reasons she is being nurtured are more altruistic?
Happy Reading, Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 09:27 |
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Woops!
All the questions ended up in black this time, I'm blaming herx but it was probbably because I had a visitor and posted in a hurry.
Are you happy with the pace we are following with this book? Let me know if changes need to be made. Unless I am informed otherwise the new reading schedule is
1/11 - Chapters 11 -14 all inclusive of the last chapter stated.
8/11 - Chapters 15 -18
15/11 - Chapters 19 -21
22/11 - Chapters 22 -25
29/11 - Chapters 26 -28
6/12 - Chapters 29 -30
That comes to the end of the book, I can't make it stretch any longer. We may find extra things to discuss nearer the end though,
Take care, Lynn
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eClaire
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 09:49 |
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Hey Lynn,
I just didn't read those pages (or when I reread them they didn't seem all that familiar and yet they were). Must be neuro IP. A memory blip on my part.
I think we all have blindspots (like blindspots in side mirrors on our cars), we're all evolving (whether we want to or not, however quickly or slowly...what's time anyway?)
There are things hidden from us now that others may actually see clearly, and if we are self reflective and growing, this too evolves (although the picture that other's have of us may not evolve in their minds).
So I think we can take off the mask and still not know ourselves or see ourselves clearly. Someone else could take off his or her mask (or change in some way) and we might not acknowledge the work that person did if the change made life harder for us or made us uncomfortable somehow.
It seems to me that the challenge is to grow and be real and give the other people in our lives the same sort of room to grow and be real that we want ourselves.
Claire
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 08:33 |
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Hi Claire.
I couldn't have put it better but I wish I had known all these things when I was a much younger person. How much easier life would have been and how differently I would have related to others.
Take care,
Lynn
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eClaire
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 09:22 |
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You said it sister!
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Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 04:08 |
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Questions for chapters 8-10.
What are your views on the character of Maurice Blanche?
What a great character. Maurice was more that an academic he was a philanthropist. This guy put his knowledge to actions and seemed to help so many people. He did it all very subtley too, egging on lady Rowan to do more when she thought she was doing all that a person in her position could do without letting the side down. He really challenged her.
Maurice seemed to be able to walk alongside every class, helping and healing as he went along. He truly was a special person. I can't say I have ever met anyone like him, and find it hard to remember if I have come across a historical figure who could match him.
When Maurice escorted Lady Rowen on the excursion out of her pond, he broke their silence with the words, “For women to have a place of account in their society, they must have a political voice. And having one Queen on the throne in the modern age does not constitute such a voice. But Rowan with you the voice always comes from a safe place, does it not.” What did Maurice mean? What more do you think he wanted of Rowan?
Queen Victoria had been dead for sometime when this story began, but the Victorian Era brought a lot of changes to Britain and the world in general. In the later years of her reign children were educated until they reached first 11 then 12 years of age. There had been many changes. This was an age when women were beginning to think they had a tough lot and wanted a voice in society. They were fed up of always being told what to do by parents or husbands. They were angry with governments too, for not letting them have some say in their Country's management, they wanted to improve standards for everyone. Maurice had a great admiration for Lady Rowan although he wanted her to do more he realised that she already did far more than a lot of upper class ladies of her time, yet he continued to challenge her.
One way to challenge Rowan was to take her out on some field work enabling her to actually experience the poverty and degradation of the masses, the ill health, and meaness of the London streets. Now she could really feel what those poor souls felt and it hit her hard. Now she wanted to do more, stand up and let her voice be heard. I wonder just how far lady Rowan is prepared to step out of her pond. Other brave women had done this before such as
Elizabeth Fry who went into Newgate prison to educate the women prisoners. I think that is the type of commitment Maurice wanted – for Lady Rowan to get her hands dirty.
We turn to the grieving household of Frankie Dobbs and his daughter Maisie. Frankie's dreams for his only daughter shattered. What qualities in Frankie's character kept him grounded? Are these qualities rare today?
So far all the characters in this novel have been very reasonable and Frankie Dobbs is no exception.
He could have shut Maisie out and buried himself in the grief he was feeling but he thought mainly about Maisie and her future. I think that kept him going. I don't know if he was able to help Maisie with her grief, but he was concerned for her future and the dreams he and his wife had for her.
Frankie was a proud man keeping himself and his surroundings well cared for. He also had humility which he showed on his visit to Belgravia, a man who thought of others more that himself.
We face the same tragedies as Frankie felt today, there some of us pick ourselves up and carry on others do not. I don't think much has changed but there are more pitfalls for us to bury our problems in. There has always been alcohol, but now we have drugs too, which people use to try to ease their pain. Frankie also had Perephone his horse and he was devoted to the creature, which goes to show that we all need something to keep us grounded.
As we read these chapters a few new characters are introduced. Can you relate to any of these characters? If so how?
As a child I listened to my grandmothers stories of the time she spent in-service In the homes of the upper class. I have no doubt that service would have been my fate should society have stayed as it was in those days. So I relate to the servants, the ordinary everyday folk who were at the beck and call of the upstairs people. The kindly folk who cooked and cleaned and who shared their gossipy titbits.
The Frankie Dobbs of this world who were proud and worked hard, keeping themselves and their homes in good order. Those who scrimped and saved to give their children a better life. At times though I have been a Lady Rowan stepping way out of my comfort zone. Sometimes I have been a little like Maisie, adventurous and wanting to step out of what my family wanted for me. I did end up like Mrs Crawford 'Queen of the kitchen” until CWD stole my vitality and energy. As I am a home body that role suited me. I can even relate to Enid trying to sound my words properly when I wanted to overcome my broad Yorkshiire accent, it remains with me even though I left my homeland many years ago. My intentions are usually good but sometimes they go haywire so I could never be a Maurice Blanche, shame! I wonder if we all have traits that we can recoginise in others, I think we do.
This story takes place where the gap in the 'Social Divide' was huge. There were the 'Upstairs' and the 'Downstairs' - the 'Gentry' and the 'Servants'. What could be the consequences for Lady Rowan and Maisie, as Maisies talent is nurtured?
Lady Rowan' position would be already frowned upon as she is active in the suffragette movement. How dare a women be discontented with her lot! Weren't they all treated like Queens so long as they towed the line. Well no! Some were mentally and physically abused whatever their class. For Lady Rowan to enable a servant girl to have a good education would have shocked the upper class, they would have been ready to commit her to an asylum. How could she possibly think the working class could be educated.
Maisie would be seen by her peers to have illusions of granduer she woud have been letting the side down. Life could have been very tough for Maisie she may have suffered scorn from both classes for trying to better herself.
Did you see any new themes emerging?
Ambition, frienship, change.
Is Maisie a 'Guinea Pig' or do you think the reasons she is being nurtured are more altruistic?
The motives behind the education of Maisie by Maurice and Lady Rowan are mainly altruistic, I think. They recognised her talent and realised it would be wasted if not persued. Perhaps they thought about the consequences of what they were doing, but I am sure Maurice would have recognised how Maisie could then go back and help her people when her education was completed. He recognised the future social potential that Maisies education could bring..
Maisie was also a 'Guinea Pig', but this was a secondary result of their decision to educate her. No one knew how this trial would all turn out, so in away it was an experiment. They were taking a chance that Maisie could cope with all the study in addition to her daily chores. The daily chores had to be completed to enable Maisie to stay in the household otherwise what would have broken out on all sides. I think they managed the circumstances well.
I watched an old movie recently, it stared a very young Sir Richard Attenborough and was called 'The Guinea Pig'. Although set at a later time in history it told the story of a bright working class boy who won a scholarship to a presitgious private school. It was an eye opener and showed how hard it would have been for Maisie over three decades earlier.
.Have a great week, Take care,
Lynn.
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eClaire
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 16:42 |
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Questions for chapters 8-10.
What are your views on the character of Maurice Blanche?
Hmmm...I really don't have much of anything. He must be incredibly interesting or charming or have been the Dale Carnegie of his time to have included so many different people from so many walks of life as people who rely on him, including many powerful people. He seems very altruistic and committed to doing "something" as long as whatever that is is an improvement over what was.
Maurice seemed to be able to walk alongside every class, helping and healing as he went along. He truly was a special person. I can't say I have ever met anyone like him, and find it hard to remember if I have come across a historical figure who could match him.
Well, I think that may appear true, but I have a feeling there are others like him and we just are not aware of. Certainly Helen Keller and Eleanor Franklin had qualities like the one's he has demonstrated. Indeed, it seems to me that a number of abolitionists and suffragets and folk fighting for equality and equal opportunity had these qualities. Many may not have had the opportunity to rub shoulders with the upper classes that Maurice had as a trained physician, a respectible position at the time.
We turn to the grieving household of Frankie Dobbs and his daughter Maisie. Frankie's dreams for his only daughter shattered. What qualities in Frankie's character kept him grounded? Are these qualities rare today?
I don't know. One thing for sure. He wasn't narcissistic and we seem to have had a run on increasing narcissism at least in the US if not the world over.
As we read these chapters a few new characters are introduced. Can you relate to any of these characters? If so how?
I don't really relate to any of the new characters though I've bumped into a few of them in my life time. Except that I've had one goal my whole life and that is to open my mind, remove the filters, increase the aperture of my vision, and to help others do the same. I think when we do this, when we can understand, then we can empathize and with empathy, true change is possible.
This story takes place where the gap in the 'Social Divide' was huge. There were the 'Upstairs' and the 'Downstairs' - the 'Gentry' and the 'Servants'. What could be the consequences for Lady Rowan and Maisie, as Maisies talent is nurtured?
Well, for Lady Rowan, she might come to understand that there is really very little other than money, education, and opportunity that separates the haves from the have nots in this world. This might fuel her activities to strive toward social equality that would come from a place of empathy and not pity.
Did you see any new themes emerging?
Passion for one's ideas, passion for education, the luck of opportunity coming knocking.
Is Maisie a 'Guinea Pig' or do you think the reasons she is being nurtured are more altruistic?
I think Lady Rowan sees Maisie, at least initially, as a project whereby she can feel like she is contributing. She's starting to see the divide and not be so comfortable with it, but she has a long way to go.
Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 16:50 by eClaire
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 03:55 |
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Claire wrote
I don't really relate to any of the new characters though I've bumped into a few of them in my life time. Except that I've had one goal my whole life and that is to open my mind, remove the filters, increase the aperture of my vision, and to help others do the same. I think when we do this, when we can understand, then we can empathize and with empathy, true change is possible.
I think this is a wonderful philosophy for anyone to follow and if only we all could the world would be such a better place to live.
Deb couldn't post this week but will be back with us when she can.
Sorry to be late with the next set of questions yesterday was a family gathering which I was able to join and enjoy. Yah!
Take care, Lynn.
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 04:16 |
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Questions for Chapters 11 -14.
Maurice gives Maisie advice about answering the questions he has given for her to complete an assignment. Can you recall those who taught you and how did they compare to Maurice?
During Maisies first encounter with Kahn she learned to sit in silence and still her mind which was supposed to give a person insight beyond the teaching of books. Do you think it is possible to still the mind and pay attention?
Maisie had been the feeling stressed due to the pressure of her studies and the attitude of those around her, especially her Father. She was prepared to give up her dreams for the sake of others. Is anyone able to relate to this or similar experiences?
Maisies Father came to the Comptons house the day after they had cross words. What were his real motives?
Though there is an upstairs/downstairs attitude between master and servant. It seems there is a greater undefined relationship amongst all at the Compton household. This is highlighted most when Frankie Dobbs moves to the country residence as groom for the Comptons. Can you define this relationship and how it works?
What are your views on the actions of Lady Rowan and Frankie to save their beloved horses from being taken to war?
I wasn't brave enough to formulate any questions about the end paragraphs of ch 14 it is all too sad.
If there is anthing anyone would like to add please feel free to do so.
Take care and have a good week, Lynn
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eClaire
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Posted: Sun Nov 2nd, 2008 23:45 |
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Questions for Chapters 11 -14.
Maurice gives Maisie advice about answering the questions he has given for her to complete an assignment. Can you recall those who taught you and how did they compare to Maurice?
No, I can't even recall Maurice's advice. (Not without going back to the book...sigh...too tired.) I do remember him saying to her when he was giving her a book of opinion to read it with the recognition that it could contain truth. In this way, I am in agreement with him. Today, it seems to me that he might also want to warn Maisie that opinion might also be intended to be used as propaganda and not opinion alone. Well-cited or not, people write with the idea to inform and influence. I think Maurice was trying to get Maisie to develop critical thinking skills so she could sort through what she read and discern truth that rang true for her.
During Maisies first encounter with Kahn she learned to sit in silence and still her mind which was supposed to give a person insight beyond the teaching of books. Do you think it is possible to still the mind and pay attention?
Yes. When we read the early reading primers as wee children the most important pages were those that said, "Look" and "Listen" and nothing else.
Maisie had been the feeling stressed due to the pressure of her studies and the attitude of those around her, especially her Father. She was prepared to give up her dreams for the sake of others. Is anyone able to relate to this or similar experiences?
Oh yeah, I chose law over an advanced degree in counseling b/c the idea of me taking counseling courses threatened my ex-Y and I wanted to keep my marriage. (Bad idea...I ended up leaving my ex-Y after law school anyway--over his long-standing inability to accept any responsibility for his anger--with law school loans and the realization that while I love the law from an academic sense, practicing it is entirely another matter.)
I understand the hurt that Maisie felt when her father became cross with her out of his own fear that she might one day feel as if she had become too good for him. I don't understand how someone could become so fearful so as to doubt the good heart of someone like Maisie. Again, it seems to be that secret fear that many have that those around us will stop loving us if they really see us, have new experiences without us, grow, etc.
Maisies Father came to the Comptons house the day after they had cross words. What were his real motives?
I don't remember this as a sequence at all. However, if I were to imagine it, I imagine that he wanted to remind his daughter that he loved her and that cross words wouldn't come between them. Of course, not remembering the event, I'm probably entirely off base.
Though there is an upstairs/downstairs attitude between master and servant. It seems there is a greater undefined relationship amongst all at the Compton household. This is highlighted most when Frankie Dobbs moves to the country residence as groom for the Comptons. Can you define this relationship and how it works?
I dunno. I think Frankie comes to the Compton household as someone who ran his own business, and although he is not considered of the same class as the Comptons, his having been his own man matters.
What are your views on the actions of Lady Rowan and Frankie to save their beloved horses from being taken to war?
I was surprised by their dishonesty. Other than that, I can't pass judgment on their unwillingness to sacrifice for the war in that way.
I wasn't brave enough to formulate any questions about the end paragraphs of ch 14 it is all too sad.
Now my curiousity is peaked and I shall have to throw the dog off my chest and go and retrieve the book!
Yeah, life has many sad moments, moments that stick in our minds and hearts forever. I believe that suffering carves out more room for joy however. One has to pay attention to enjoy all that life has to offer...the bitter and the sweet.
If there is anthing anyone would like to add please feel free to do so.
Although Maisie's father is afraid that she will never fit in in a time when the classes are so divided in England, I would have loved to have had Maisie's opportunities at that age. I think that despite the loss of her mother at a young age she's been blessed with parents who loved her and people who have taken an interest in developing her mind, heart, and soul.
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Deb Grabetz
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Posted: Wed Nov 5th, 2008 19:09 |
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Please excuse my absence!
What are your views on the character of Maurice Blanche?
He reminds me a bit of a couple of people I've worked with in the past who were fine mentors for others. He encourages Lady Rowan to use her talents and sees that there is much more opportunity for her than what she is using in her earlier years...thus he become her mentor of sorts. It took Lady Rowan some time to recognize exactly what direction Maurice was gently pushing her towards but at some point in the book she admits "she could do more."
Maurice seemed to be able to walk alongside every class, helping and healing as he went along. He truly was a special person. I can't say I have ever met anyone like him, and find it hard to remember if I have come across a historical figure who could match him.
It appears that Maurice had a rich upbringing and exposure to many who influenced him in a proper way. When we think about this, those who cross our paths have a lot to do with what we learn, who we become, connections of sort. It is much of that influence of others that we know that helps directs our life, or so I think it is. Maurice seemed privy to this.
We turn to the grieving household of Frankie Dobbs and his daughter Maisie. Frankie's dreams for his only daughter shattered. What qualities in Frankie's character kept him grounded? Are these qualities rare today?
I like the fact that he respected himself as a person and did not define who he was by what he did. Claire and I have had chats about this, people and their egos. Quoting from the book, Frankie says "Just because I use me 'ands to make a livin' doesn't mean to say I can't do with a bit of spit and polish." I wouldn't say these qualities are rare today but I do think that we have become a society that tends to define itself by what we do. I always like to hear a stay at home mom remind others that the work she does is not only important but hard. That would be a good example for me. I always worked while raising our three children and although tough to manage, I do believe staying home is hard work and very demanding!
As we read these chapters a few new characters are introduced. Can you relate to any of these characters? If so how?
This story takes place where the gap in the 'Social Divide' was huge. There were the 'Upstairs' and the 'Downstairs' - the 'Gentry' and the 'Servants'. What could be the consequences for Lady Rowan and Maisie, as Maisies talent is nurtured?
When I think back to this particular time in history this Social Divide was so strong of a foundation, with old family money and such holding such weight, that Lady Rowan may have that "attitude", regardless of Maisies talents. Maybe I will find this to be untrue as we get along further in the chapters. I see this existing yet today. We live in a small town and old family money and the generations that follow believe it or not still hold their status. I bet many of you know exactly where I'm coming from.
Did you see any new themes emerging?
The opportunity of education.
Is Maisie a 'Guinea Pig' or do you think the reasons she is being nurtured are more altruistic?
I would say that maybe Maisie begins as a project for Lady Rowan---but I bet that will change further along in the book as we are told early on that Maisie was considered a bright one almost from the beginning. That she could focus on others and read right through them. Interesting to note!
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Thu Nov 6th, 2008 02:13 |
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Due 8/11Questions for Chapters 11 -14.
Maurice gives Maisie advice about answering the questions he has given for her to complete an assignment. Can you recall those who taught you and how did they compare to Maurice?
I have didn't have a teacher on a one to one basis. Like most people I was taught at school in a class of over 30 students. The style of teaching was harder in those days than it is now. We were like little parrots repeating everything until we knew it, even if we didn't know what it meant. To ask what the teacher was talking about was a sin and a child would be judged as stupid for not getting it the first time. We did as we were told or suffered the consequences which could be unkind for very young children. If our work wasn't up to scratch ( which mine often wasn't) we were made an example of which was most humiliating and the punishment was often physical in the primary school years. None of this enhanced a child's learning capacity. High school was a lot better. Of course, this may only have been at the school I went to, I don't know about others.
Teachers are special people who have a great responsibility for the development of our children but they have a very tough job in this day and age and the styles of teaching and discipline have changed so much. Today teachers challenge a child to think for themselves and find out information, which I think is how Maurice was teaching Maisie. I don't envy them their jobs as the children and youth of today have changed so much too. To control a class of over 30 and to impart knowledge in a way the others can learn is a very special skill
It is a much easier thing to do on a one to one basis. I'm not sure Maurice would have coped in a school. I suppose it is a different environment at University level.
During Maisie's first encounter with Kahn she learned to sit in silence and still her mind which was supposed to give a person insight beyond the teaching of books. Do you think it is possible to still the mind and pay attention?
I am interested in the response to this question as I am sure some people can do this but I find my mind wanders so it is hard to tap into insight. I must have been able to concentrate when learning but this is a different type of stillness, something that books or lectures cannot impart. A skill I do not have.
Maisie had been the feeling stressed due to the pressure of her studies and the attitude of those around her, especially her Father. She was prepared to give up her dreams for the sake of others. Is anyone able to relate to this or similar experiences?
It is amazing how everyone was so supportive of Maisie's education to begin with. Maisie's endeavours seems to have conflicted with the personal agenda of those around her. This showed up as they saw her progressing well. I can relate to giving up my needs due to the pressure that I felt from others especially when there is an emotional involvement. An action like that can change the course of a life. I am wiser now, I hope, but being aware of this process does not mean I will not repeat it as emotions can be so powerful. In Maisie's case her father seemed worried for his daughters place in society and his need for her not to change.
Maisie's Father came to the Compton's house the day after they had cross words. What were his real motives?
He had probably been running over and over again his talk with Maisie from the day before and realized how it must have upset her. I think he just wanted to undo any damage he may have caused in the relationship.
Though there is an upstairs/downstairs attitude between master and servant. It seems there is a greater undefined relationship amongst all at the Compton household. This is highlighted most when Frankie Dobbs moves to the country residence as groom for the Compton's. Can you define this relationship and how it works?
I think it is all about respect and knowing what is each person's place in the scheme of things.
In many households of that period servants weren't given any consideration at all, they were hired and sacked at whim. In the Compton's household this is not the case. The servants seem to be treated fairly and shown some respect. This is appreciated by those who serve, who in turn have great respect and consideration for their employers. Servants then become loyal employees, enabling the household to run fairly smoothly. It doesn't mean that action would not be taken against those servants who took advantage of their employers kindness, or if they stepped out of line.
This respectful behaviour occurs amongst the servant hierarchy too.
What are your views on the actions of Lady Rowan and Frankie to save their beloved horses from being taken to war?
I could empathize with Frankie though his horse would probably been too old for consideration. I was surprise at Lady Rowan's attitude. I know she loved her horses but I would have thought she would be prepare to donate them to the defense of her country. I think there would be a heavy price to pay if she is ever found out and as she seemed a bit of a philanthropist it didn't seem to gel with covering things up.
I wasn't brave enough to formulate any questions about the end paragraphs of ch 14 it is all too sad.
This event happened in my grandparents day and it was as if it was them it was happening to. My Grandmother had those goodbyes to say too. I'm glad my Granddad came home safely.
If there is anything anyone would like to add please feel free to do so.
Take care and have a good week, Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Thu Nov 6th, 2008 02:46 |
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Hi Deb,
Welcome back and thanks for the post. I loved this quote from you. Oh how true it is!
I always like to hear a stay at home mom remind others that the work she does is not only important but hard. That would be a good example for me. I always worked while raising our three children and although tough to manage, I do believe staying home is hard work and very demanding!
Caring for a young family is very hard and a full time job.
I take my hat off to you for working too.
Take care, Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Nov 8th, 2008 02:50 |
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Questions for Chapters 15-18
1) Priscilla enters the story almost like a whirl wind. She is such a different personality from Maisie. The two girls make friends and seem to get along well. What do you think makes this friendship work?
2) Maurice sent Maisie a gift to open on her arrival at Girton College. It was a book with blank pages meant to be for her daily writings. Inside the cover Maurice had inscribed words written by Soren Kierkegaard. ' There is nothing of which everyman is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming.'
Would you say these words apply to everyone or would some people have an innate knowledge of their capabilities and not be afraid of the journey to fulfillment?
3) Although Maisie and Priscilla came from different back grounds. Maisie having suffered tragedy and poverty, Priscilla seemingly being sheltered and cared for.
In what way did Maisie seem to have advantages and opportunities to develop herself that Priscilla did not have?
4) Maisie throws caution to the wind and accompanies Priscilla to Simon's leaving party. This is a big step out of her comfort zone.
Can anyone relate to the possible feelings and emotions Maisie would be feeling at the party?
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