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eClaire
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Posted: Mon Nov 10th, 2008 04:04 |
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Questions for Chapters 15-18
1) Priscilla enters the story almost like a whirl wind. She is such a different personality from Maisie. The two girls make friends and seem to get along well. What do you think makes this friendship work?
Hmmm...what I am about to say doesn't seem to fit with Priscilla's voluteering as an Army nurse (then again, it might). I think that the kind of person portrayed by the character Priscilla is the sort who likes a good audiennce, and I imagine Maisie provided as much.
2) Maurice sent Maisie a gift to open on her arrival at Girton College. It was a book with blank pages meant to be for her daily writings. Inside the cover Maurice had inscribed words written by Soren Kierkegaard. ' There is nothing of which everyman is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming.'
Would you say these words apply to everyone or would some people have an innate knowledge of their capabilities and not be afraid of the journey to fulfillment?
To the first part of your question: While I can attest to this fear (though less and less as I age and mellow b/c my body put a stop to much of what I might have been able to do given my preferences), I can't say I get the sense that most people would put this at the top of their fear list. Fear of dying might be at the top or public speaking. (I'm not afraid of either.) I think there may be plenty of people who don't navel gaze and wonder whether they are living up to their full potential; I think there may be plenty of people for whom other values predominate, and that sort of diversity is a-okay with me.
While much is shared in the human experience, sometimes I think some writers believe that whatever they feel strongly so must others. I love Learning to Fall and it has been honored as a spiritual classic, and yet I've given it to people who either think it too deep or think it just a bunch of stories from a guy's life. What I am saying is that even a best seller is disliked by a certain percentage of people. And so there are lots of "truths" written by philosophers like Kirkegaard that are indeed true, but for how many?
That said, I think some folk, if they don't have an innate knowledge, discover very quickly what their muse in life is and pursue it with deliberate speed and perhaps with little to no fear. This has not been my experience.
At the same time, I have not been afraid (for the most part) of my inward journey, getting to know self. This again--being someone who is committed to "begin within"--is just my journey and applies perhaps to a certain percentage of the population. There really are so many different paths to fulfillment.
3) Although Maisie and Priscilla came from different backgrounds. Maisie having suffered tragedy and poverty, Priscilla seemingly being sheltered and cared for. In what way did Maisie seem to have advantages and opportunities to develop herself that Priscilla did not have?
Well, Maisie was encouraged to develop intellectually while I imagine that Priscilla's parents hoped that their daughter, after three rambuntuous boys in a well to family, would simply grow up and marry well. I can't imagine the development of her intellectual capacity was foremost in her family. Maisie was also her parents' only child and so she probably had a sense from the beginning that more was expected of her.
4) Maisie throws caution to the wind and accompanies Priscilla to Simon's leaving party. This is a big step out of her comfort zone. Can anyone relate to the possible feelings and emotions Maisie would be feeling at the party?
Oh yeah. Neither of my parents finished high school: my mother did not go beyond grade school--a war on, bombs dropping all around and all--, and my dad, an American, dropped out, lied about his age, and went off to war in the Pacific at age 16. I was the first to go to college. I had been raised to be pretty impervious to class distinctions by my mother, and I did not notice throughout high school and college that people often make decisions based on class (decisions like who to pal around with). I didn't feel clas slights; I just thought that some people just didn't care for me. I had an old high school classmate set me straight after I graduated from college when he explained to me why he never invited me to the parties at his house even though he liked me. You could say that this lack of class awareness was a tell-tale sign of my class (or lack there of...it's all in the meaning of the word class, eh?)
When my ex-Y was in grad school and for years after. I found it very odd that most of my friends had PhDs--friends brought into our home from my ex-Y's schooling and profession--having been raised as I had among poor and working class folk.
When I went to law school years later, I found myself surrounded by people whose grandmothers and great grandmothers went to college, some had Aunt's or father's who were judges (a number were trust fund babies, etc.), and one had a grandmother who was a concert pianist. My best friend in law school, a much younger African-American man from inner city Philly, decided in the first couple of days of school to become attached to my side throughout our three-year journey because unlike many other people in the class I seemed to know something about life. As he said, "You've been around the block"--meaning, I knew what was what and didn't hold some of the stupid notions about the poor and working class that folk who are not of those classes oft times hold.
Of course, I don't have the class knowledge (all the stuff you learn by being part of a certain class) to survive among the wealthy, let alone be welcome. (I could keep from embarrassing myself among upper middle class folk...I suppose, though probably not the country club set.) I figure there must exist wealthy people who are not tied to their class rules like some folk are to their mother's apron strings--people who have friends who are not well to do financially. I just haven't met them and if I have, they've never decided to pal around with me.
5) Maisie and Enid met at the station cafe. Enid was upset after her farewell with James,she let her mask fall and opened up her heart to Maisie. “ Maisie I never meant anything. Really I didn't James will come back. I know he will. And this war is changing everything. 'ave you noticed that? When the likes of me can earn a good living even in wartime, the likes of the better-offs will have to change, won't they?
How was this the beginning of change for the better-offs? Do you think this decline happened very quickly?
Hmmm...this feels like ancient history given that in the US the richest are getting even richer while the rest of us....
When people band together as they did in various European countries (Socialistic Democracies) and as people did in earlier times in our country, they have a lot of power (and it seems that power seems to be one of those things where the pie doesn't get larger, it just gets re-distributed somewhat). This is still true in many European countries. In the US, the power of the people has been hindered, I think, by three things: creation of a middle class, often work dependent health insurance (and all around poor health care and shallow social safety net), and "right to work laws" in many states (and also the decline of unions in the US). In European countries, a general strike can be called and the government is generally forced into responding to the will of the people. In the US, the poor, working class, and middle class have too much to lose.
6) Do you see any new themes emerging. Is there anything you would like to add about the characters or the storyline so far?
I can't see the young doctor making it out alive, which is why I get this sense that Maisie is a woman who is not ready for romance even after so many years after the war is over. The author has just about made her sexless in the beginning and I think we are being introduced to the young doctor to explain how she could become who she is in the beginning of the book. Have to wait and see...read the book.
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 05:19 |
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Questions for Chapters 15-18
Priscilla enters the story almost like a whirl wind. She is such a different personality from Maisie. The two girls make friends and seem to get along well. What do you think makes this friendship work?
Priscilla seems to be very good for Maisie who having gained entry to Cambridge feels she has to prove herself, so is constantly working. Priscilla brings a lightness to Maisie's serious mind and makes her laugh. Priscilla also seems to accept Maisie for who she is regardless of the social class Maisie comes from. I think this acceptance and fun helps Maisie settle into a lifestyle which would otherwise be very hard for her to cope with. Maisie life becomes a little more balanced, even if at first it is only having a laugh at Priscilla's attempts to knit socks.
Maisie is good for Priscilla too her serious mindedness may have kept Priscilla more grounded than she would have been left to her own devices.
2) Maurice sent Maisie a gift to open on her arrival at Girton College. It was a book with blank pages meant to be for her daily writings. Inside the cover Maurice had inscribed words written by Soren Kierkegaard. ' There is nothing of which everyman is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming.'
Would you say these words apply to everyone or would some people have an innate knowledge of their capabilities and not be afraid of the journey to fulfillment?
Some people are afraid of fulfilling their capabilities and settle for a lot less than they could achieve. It is almost like they have a block somewhere preventing them from developing. I have wondered if these people may be happier, as they haven't lived with the stress they may have lived with if they had tried to aim higher. I often think they may be happier. Am I confusing ambition with capabilities? I'm not sure but, I think people may need some ambition to identify capabilities.
Also some people travel so far along the road to fulfilling their capabilities then let circumstances or emotional commitments to stop them. They may forever be wondering what they could have achieved if they had not let somethings stand in the way.
Others may know where they want to go and obtain their goal through a lot of hard work but end up not having a great life.
I wonder if there are people who can achieve their capabilities, be happy and keep their lives on an even keel too. I don't know which category I would fall into perhaps a little of everything.
I'm not sure I agree with Kierkegaard here I don't think everyman is afraid of getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming, though some may be. Rambling again!
3) Although Maisie and Priscilla came from different back grounds. Maisie having suffered tragedy and poverty, Priscilla seemingly being sheltered and cared for.
In what way did Maisie seem to have advantages and opportunities to develop herself that Priscilla did not have?
Priscilla came for a well off family and the expectation they would have for her is that she would make a good match settle down and produce a family. Her education would have been good but it would have been learning all the things a young lady of her time should in order to become a good homemaker and to mix with the elite. The expectation to achieve would have been focused on her brothers. Priscilla had been a bit of a tomboy and tried to keep up with the boys even down to taking driving lessons. I suspect she wasn't about to be outdone by brothers and it says she kept up with them. When Priscilla became a bit of a rebel she was packed of to Girton to await Mr right, not to learn more than was befitting a girl.
Maisie who had a somewhat deprived upbringing had parent who wanted something better for there only child. With no sons to pin their hopes on Mr and Mrs Dobbs pinned all their hopes on their bright daughter. Maisie was given encouragement from home which helped her achieve at school. In turn her talent was recognized by teachers who entered her for a scholarship exam.
Although Maisie ended up in service again she was given breaks as her employer recognized her talent and acted on her instincts. Maisie seemed to have lots of luck on the way through life and as she came from a poor background recognized the opportunities she had been given.
4) Maisie throws caution to the wind and accompanies Priscilla to Simon's leaving party. This is a big step out of her comfort zone.
Can anyone relate to the possible feelings and emotions Maisie would be feeling at the party?
Probably Maisie was feeling like a 'Fish out of Water,' and I sure can relate to that, even without the social class issue. It took me a long time to feel comfortable at any social event. I had been such a shy child and given to blushing easily. I hated the blushing and tried to avoid any circumstances where it may occur. I was brought up in working class England where class distinction was still an issue, (more I think in peoples minds than in the developing country.) My parents were still very aware of which class they fitted into and so I was brought up accordingly. It took a long time to overcome my blushing and awkwardness, then to be comfortable in being the person I am. I have never been good at small talk and I'm very happy in the company of people who talk a lot, then I only have to listen. Maisie handled this event much better than I would have, I thought she did very well.
5) Maisie and Enid met at the station cafe. Enid was upset after her farewell with James,she let her mask fall and opened up her heart to Maisie. “ Maisie I never meant anything. Really I didn't James will come back. I know he will. And this war is changing everything. 'ave you noticed that?
When the likes of me can earn a good living even in wartime, the likes of the better-offs will have to change, won't they?
How was this the beginning of change for the better-offs? Do you think this decline happened very quickly?
Those from the upper classes and those who became rich through business interests who expected their privileged life to continue after WW1 were sorely disappointed. The death of may young men on the western front meant that womens role in society had to change. Women were now employed in jobs men previously dominated leaving very few available for servants duties. Money was scarce and more money could be earned in factories and industry than in positions as servants. Many of the better-offs had lost sons during the war and large houses became to expensive to keep up. Lots of the larger homes were donated to The National Trust, or opened to the public. All this was to happen over a long time period and continue after WW2. There were other issues that leveled society too. Women after a long fight were granted the vote. Social poverty issues continued to be taken care of. Then there was the great depression. War depletes the finances of every country who wages it and with many young men dead things had to change. This happened not only in Britain but in so many country's around the world who had fought in WW1. Social conditions are still changing and will continue to do so.
6) Do you see any new themes emerging. Is there anything you would like to add about the characters or the storyline so far?
Maisie has been challenged to do more for the boys who are away at war – more than just knitting socks. We know she trains as a nurse I think we may be in for some traumatic times ahead, which will help us understand how her original investigation is relevant to the story.
It is great to have everyones input into this story as we all seem to pick up something different.
Take care,
Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Nov 11th, 2008 06:20 |
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Hi Claire,
I hadn't heard of Learning to Fall so I googled it and found a book by Phillip Simmons which I presume is the one you talk of. It does look interesting and I will add it to my list.
I found what you said to question 5) interesting. It seems unions have declined in the U.S. do you mean they have declined in power or numbers?
In Australia and England unions became very strong. It seemed they were almost holding the country to ransom at one point.
It is such a shame, they can be very effective for the greater good when they do not become too greedy in their demands.
I honestly think unions are a good thing for everyone when used wisely.
Take care, Lynn
Last edited on Tue Nov 11th, 2008 06:23 by Sunbeam
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 03:27 |
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Hi Bookclub members,
This story is progressing quickly now, I hope you are still enjoying the book. I find it very thought provoking and disturbing, jolting me from the comfortable exsistence I would be living if it wasn't for Th1 disease. I hope you are taking it in your stride. Let me know how you are going with it all.
Questions for chapters 19-21
1) I hope none of us have ever lived in such pimitive conditions as Maisie and Iris endured whilst living at that Field Hospital in France. It would be my worst nightmare. What do you think allows a person deal with with such conditions and in positive manner?
2) Frankie Dobbs took Maisie to the local Station to catch her train for London where she was to meet Simon. Here he cautions Maisie saying, “ I'm talking about your 'eart Maisie. Mind out for your 'eart,” Was Maisie minding out for her 'eart when she didn't give an answer to Simon's proposal? Maisie said she loved Simon. So what difference would it have made to them both if she had she answered yes at this stage in their relationship?
3) In these chapters Maisie is constantly thinking of how quickly her leave will end and how soon she must return to France. While saying goodbye to Simon at the station he says, 'I wish I understood time Maisie. It vanishes through ones fingers.” Maisie returns, “Maurice says that only when we have respect for time will we have learned something of the art of living.” How would you interpret that statement?
4) Much is made of coincidence at the beginning of chapter 21. Coincidence certainly seemed relevant in this story. What do you think about coincidences? Should we take more notice of them?
5) What are your views on the character James, Lady Rowan's son?
6) Do you see any new themes in these chapters? Have you any views about the story so far that you would like to contribute?
Take care, Lynn.
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eClaire
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Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 04:24 |
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Lynn,
I just want to say that I had a great response to your earlier question to me (truly ) and a comment about something you said in your answers and didn't hit copy before sending it and my ISP was having trouble with its server . And I've just started Phase 2 and do not have the energy or memory to recreate . Sorry. I will try to copy so I can save if hitting send fails in the future.
I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you...cause I'm not.
Claire
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Deb Grabetz
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 03:44 |
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Maurice gives Maisie advice about answering the questions he has given for her to complete an assignment. Can you recall those who taught you and how did they compare to Maurice?
I think this question could turn into a novel! I have learned so much from so many. As a youngster, I had an aunt, my dads sister, who was a teacher. Having come from a broken home, she always seemed to take me under her wing. She never married and had no children of her own. Still as an adult, I think of the many ways she educated me. She had a kind and gentle spirit and was therefore always able to reach people with her soft approach. She had a way of capturing your attention and focus. As an adult, I learned from a couple significant bosses--and I will also say my husband taught me much. One of my bosses was a very demanding guy---he taught me so much when I first got into the glass business---yet I always had so much respect for him because of his expectations---as I was about 20 when I started working for him-I have always credited him for my success.
In later years another boss, came along and taught me many aspects of life. He was a true leader--he was kind, caring, yet had high expectations for his staff---and due to his nature, he earned and was allowed this respect. He was the type of person that you would work hard for and do it without thinking. He respected his staff and often referred to us as co-workers not subordinates. He taught me much about respect for others. He had a genuine gift for giving and humanitarian side that was hard not to grasp and learn from.
From my husband, I have to say I learned many, many things. A quiet, gentle man. He taught me at a very young age to have patience. I was not always the most patient person in the world but soon enough picked up on these traits. He supervised people for many years and certainly had his challenges with employees but rarely did I hear him speak ill about anyone---this was a good lesson. Now, I suppose this is getting away from the education side of learning...but if we allow ourselves to, we can learn so many human traits that we admire, just by watching and observing others! Something I often try to do!
During Maisies first encounter with Kahn she learned to sit in silence and still her mind which was supposed to give a person insight beyond the teaching of books. Do you think it is possible to still the mind and pay attention?
Funny question Lynn....having to deal with the brain fog at times! For me personally, I think when my mind is *still* I am more focused. When I'm having a challenging day---or in other words too many things going on in my head---I find I don't pay attention well at all. I'm distracted. I'm beginning to personally have less and less of this as I get better, in other words I'm calmer and my head seems clear.
Maisie had been the feeling stressed due to the pressure of her studies and the attitude of those around her, especially her Father. She was prepared to give up her dreams for the sake of others. Is anyone able to relate to this or similar experiences?
I sure do! I felt this way many years as a working mom---although I loved my job and position, there were times that I wanted to trade it all to focus more on my children. Now, looking back I see that I gave my children a tremendous gift by working because it allowed them the freedom to make more decisions on their own----it allowed them to be responsible for other siblings--and it allowed them to see successful parents that they could model. But, I did come very close at times because I felt that they were being shortchanged with a full time mom. Funny how we live with so much fear in our lives at different times! When we let that fear take over--we usually overlook the benefits of many situations!
Maisies Father came to the Comptons house the day after they had cross words. What were his real motives?
Having a husband who has two daughters---this one is short and sweet, I'm thinking that Frankie was feeling a bit low over his confrontation with Maisie and just wanted to set things right.
Though there is an upstairs/downstairs attitude between master and servant. It seems there is a greater undefined relationship amongst all at the Compton household. This is highlighted most when Frankie Dobbs moves to the country residence as groom for the Comptons. Can you define this relationship and how it works?
I believe I read a post that referred to this as respect and I would have to agree. When we think about this on a broader scope, this same attitude exists in business, the workplace, families on down to relationships. How many of us have worked for both an arrogant boss and yet another who was on our same level and treated us as an equal? I think it all comes down to personalities and as earlier noted, respect that people show for one another. I'm all about respect!!!
What are your views on the actions of Lady Rowan and Frankie to save their beloved horses from being taken to war?
OK I'm one to do the right thing and the right thing for the country would have been to give up the horses Lady Rowan though seemed quite desperate about her horses and my guess is that Frankie felt so much gratitude for her for all that had been done for his daughter, his acceptance of her not wanting to give up the horses came across as complete loyalty, in my opinion!
I wasn't brave enough to formulate any questions about the end paragraphs of ch 14 it is all too sad.
Yes Lynn, you're right about that. The closest that my family got to any war, was when my (future) FIL, was sent to Germany. He barely made it there for WWII and the war ended. I cannot help but become absorbed at the pain and suffering of those who fight for their country and yet do so with such pride. Often when flying I would acknowledge military personnel on board---they are not only brave but very humble!
If there is anthing anyone would like to add please feel free to do so.
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 05:10 |
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Yes Claire, phase 2 really slows one down, I can empathize with you. It's best to go with the flow, no need to answer all the questions but enjoy the book.
I know you are still reading so take care,
Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 06:03 |
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Hi Deb,
You saw a different perspective to question 1 than I did which made me think of all the good teaching role models I have had in my life too, other than the official ones.
There have been quite a few and I'm so glad they passed on their gifts. It's a great lesson in thinking that school teachers are not the only influence in our learning. There are great teachers I know and I was blessed with a few but as I said methods were different in those days.
In question 2, I was thinking of a course I once did, one lesson was trying to empty the mind and concentrate, that must mean emptying the mind of peripheral encroaching thoughts which I think we all need to do for learning.
Also I think Eastern religions try to just empty the mind altogether and I wondered if that was what kahn was trying to teach Maisie. That seems an impossible skill to aquire to me. So I see concentrating and empting the mind as two different things.
Good perspective on being a working Mum and I have to agree with it. I think most of us go through that fear and feel torn between what we need to do and what we feel is best. I know I certainly did, on on the whole it probably did me more harm worrying about it all than it did my children who all seem pretty well adjusted people now.
keep well,
Lynn
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 02:02 |
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- 1) I hope none of us have ever lived in such primitive conditions as Maisie and Iris endured whilst living at that Field Hospital in France. It would be my worst nightmare. What do you think allows a person to deal with with such conditions in a positive manner?
I'm not sure, but I think a sense of humour plays a good part in our attitude to how we deal with circumstances. There didn't seem to be anything funny in what they were experiencing but they made something to laugh about out of their circumstances. As Iris said, “Well then, go get your letter from a special friend of a friend then, and leave me to my delousing, if you don't mind.”
Also the knowledge that others were having it tougher than they were, helped them see things in perspective. As Maisie said,” At least we are not up to our knees in mud in the trenches, Iris.” I think this is something we should all keep in mind when we are feeling hard done by.
There is also the thinking that you just have to get on with it.
2) Frankie Dobbs took Maisie to the local Station to catch her train for London where she was to meet Simon. Here he cautions Maisie saying, “ I'm talking about your 'eart Maisie. Mind out for your 'eart,” Was Maisie minding out for her 'eart when she didn't give an answer to Simon's proposal? Maisie said she loved Simon. So what difference would it have made to them both if she had she answered yes at this stage in their relationship?
I don't think the fact that Maisie didn't answer Simon was because she was minding her heart. I think Maisie had some premonition that things were not going to work out for the good and she didn't want to tempt fate.
Maisie did seem to love Simon and by not giving him a positive answer may have made him unsure of her, and of himself. If she had said yes but that she wanted to finish university after the war, they would both have known what the future may hold for them. It may have given them a purpose other than work, surviving and injuries to think of. It may have made their lives happier in the short term and would not have changed the loss they would feel if anything did happen to one of them before the war ended.
3) In these chapters Maisie is constantly thinking of how quickly her leave will end and how soon she must return to France. While saying goodbye to Simon at the station he says, 'I wish I understood time Maisie. It vanishes through ones fingers.” Maisie returns, “Maurice says that only when we have respect for time will we have learned something of the art of living.” How would you interpret that statement?
Gosh time! Most of our lives there is never enough of it to go around to accomplish the tasks we need to, or see the people we need to. Perhaps, having respect for time teaching us something about the art of living, is something about deciding what is worth giving our time to, and what is not.
We can get so bogged down with things that seem so important at the time, but seem very trivial with hindsight. Imagine how much more we could enjoy life if we didn't give our energies to unimportant things. Developing the ability to see what is important and what is not only develops with time. I suppose it is something to do with thinking smart. Identifying what is important to us the individual, along with forming supportive relationships and not overburdening ourselves but helping where we can, seems a good place to start.
4) Much is made of coincidence at the beginning of chapter 21. Coincidence certainly seemed relevant in this story. What do you think about coincidences? Should we take more notice of them?
Perhaps we should. Mostly I have always put things down to being just that, a coincidence though there have been some significant coincidence in my life. If a coincidence impacts on a life after the event maybe there is more to it all but I have not had that happen to me so far.
5) What are your views on the character James, Lady Rowan's son?
James seems to have been caught between classes as he discovered when he fell in love with Enid. Others may or may not have had a more terrible experience of war than James had. He may not have had such severe war injuries as other soldiers had received, its true, but it all left James confused and depressed. Wealth and social position mean nothing if your world has crashed and the loss of Enid along with his war memories seemed to fill his mind. No amount of 'should's' from his family or the opinions of others were going to alter his feelings. He needed a good therapist which I think is how he saw the farm. That lifestyle would be his therapy. I didn't see him as weak perhaps he was even far sighted.
6) Do you see any new themes in these chapters? Have you any views about the story so far that you would like to contribute?
The story is set in the time of my grandparents youth. I know my grandmother was in service as a house maid as she would often tell me stories of the big house she worked in. I have found the setting and characters bringing up the stories I was once told, making the setting very real for me. I can visualize the western front and all the injured soldiers, the tent hospital, hear the guns and see the mud. This story and the way it is written seems very real to me.
Take care and go at your own pace we can read replys anytime,
Lynn
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 02:04 by Sunbeam
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eClaire
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:04 |
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Still enjoying the book!!!
Questions for chapters 19-21
1) I hope none of us have ever lived in such pimitive conditions as Maisie and Iris endured whilst living at that Field Hospital in France. It would be my worst nightmare. What do you think allows a person deal with with such conditions and in positive manner?
Active denial, supportive delusions, firm convictions, friendship, spiritual grounding. One or more and then some.
2) Frankie Dobbs took Maisie to the local Station to catch her train for London where she was to meet Simon. Here he cautions Maisie saying, “ I'm talking about your 'eart Maisie. Mind out for your 'eart,” Was Maisie minding out for her 'eart when she didn't give an answer to Simon's proposal? Maisie said she loved Simon. So what difference would it have made to them both if she had she answered yes at this stage in their relationship?
If she was not answering out of fear that one or the other might not come back, then she wasn't minding her heart.
If she was operating out of the concern that her feelings for Simon were due in part to the trauma they were both experiencing and she wanted to test the relationship in peace time (assuming it was around the corner), then she was.
I don't remember the author giving us much clue, but I read that part over a week ago and so I don't remember if the author supplied any reasoning for Maisie.
3) In these chapters Maisie is constantly thinking of how quickly her leave will end and how soon she must return to France. While saying goodbye to Simon at the station he says, 'I wish I understood time Maisie. It vanishes through ones fingers.” Maisie returns, “Maurice says that only when we have respect for time will we have learned something of the art of living.” How would you interpret that statement?
He's talking about living in the sacredness of the present and eternal moment. (My take.)
I remember learning this most clearly while visiting relatives overseas.
I've never had a lot of money--the sort of money that would pay for the plane tickets and the kind of expenditures that come about when traveling to visit relatives in a foreign land--and so my visits to my overseas relatives are punctuated by many years when I don't see them.
Seeing them is sweet, knowing that time vanishes through ones fingers is bittersweet--that is, knowing that a day will arrive when it is the day after the last day of the visit and time will turn into years.
If I focus on that last day throughout the visit, I miss out on what is most precious, seeing and being present with my relatives in the moment.
4) Much is made of coincidence at the beginning of chapter 21. Coincidence certainly seemed relevant in this story. What do you think about coincidences? Should we take more notice of them?
I think there are coincidences and I think there are times when opportunity knocks.
I also know, however, that just because opportunity knocks does not mean we ought to open the door.
I think, as my friend Juanita (on the MP) says, "We ought not be so open minded that our brains fall out."
5) What are your views on the character James, Lady Rowan's son?
I have no view about him. I feel that little has been given in the book to know much about him other than he loved to have a giggle and after the war, he did not.
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eClaire
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:27 |
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Lynn,
Your comments about your grandmother got me thinking of mine and my grandfather, who were in Northern Ireland at the time of WWI. Northern Ireland was created in 1920. I don't know of the involvement of the folk in Northern Ireland, if any, during WWI (how embarrasing), but I think that Ireland would have been under British rule during the beginning of WWI (b/c it was the Brits that divided up Ireland). (No doubt, however, that they were busy building ships, as Belfast was a huge ship building port.)
I do know that my grandfather was injured by a horse trammeling him when he was a young man before his oldest child was born (I believe), which would have been in 1916 (when that child was born), and so it is conceivable that even had he been asked to play a role, he could not have because he walked with a limp thereafter and couldn't do hard labor, which was just about the only thing open to him given his education and background.
At any rate, I'll have to ask my mother what she knows of that time (from family stories and her knowledge of her own country's history). I only met my grandmother twice and my grandfather died before I was born and so the topic never came up. However, my mother lived through the bombs of WWII and so I've heard lots of family stories about what happened during that war.
As for my grandparents in the US, both the grandparents on my father's side were dead before I was born; my father's mother died when my dad was 11 and his father when he was 20 (I wasn't born until my dad was 30). It's conceivable that my father's father could have served in WWI, though he would have been 42 when the US entered the war in 1917 and so I think his age would have made that unlikely...perhaps. My father, who has been dead 26 years now, never mentioned his father serving in the military. Given that my father and my brother served in the Navy and fought in foreign wars (WWII and Vietnam), I think he'd have mentioned it, had his father served.
Claire
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eClaire
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Posted: Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:42 |
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Writing the above made me realize that I was born to the youngest children of people who were fairly old (not spring chickens) when my parents were born (my father's mother was 35 and his father 50 when he was born; my mother's mother was 35 and my guess is her father was 48 when she was born; my mother was 27 and father was 30...at least they got started a little earlier with their youngest). Talk about being ripe for inheriting a lot of CWD!!!
Claire
Last edited on Fri Nov 21st, 2008 06:44 by eClaire
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 07:05 |
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Questions for chapters 22 – 25
1) Maisie tells Maurice about the case she is working on and adds that her only client was Christopher Davenham, but now Lady Rowan is concerned for her son James. During the conversation Maurice implies that in this case there is something there for Maisie to discover about herself. (pg.222.) Do you think that Maisie is aware that this particular case is not only about a mystery, but is some kind of personal therapy for her?
2) What was it about Maisies visit to The Retreat beside the financial aspect which made her question Major Jenkins approach to such a benevolent idea? (pg 230)
3) Both Billy and Maisie had suffered from the trauma of war. Even though it was ten years after the war had finished they were still dealing with the repercussions of their experiences, both in different ways (pg 236). Billy walked the streets at night when he couldn't sleep and Maisie seemed to live only for her work. Do you think the way they are both dealing with their trauma will eventually bring acceptance of what happened ?
4) How would you have imagined a home for traumatised and physically disabled returned soldiers should be run?
5) What are your feelings after reading these chapters? Do you see any new themes arising?
6) Is there anything in these chapters that you would like to express your views about?
Take care,
Lynn
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eClaire
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 08:14 |
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Questions for chapters 22 – 25
1) Maisie tells Maurice about the case she is working on and adds that her only client was Christopher Davenham, but now Lady Rowan is concerned for her son James. During the conversation Maurice implies that in this case there is something there for Maisie to discover about herself. (pg.222.) Do you think that Maisie is aware that this particular case is not only about a mystery, but is some kind of personal therapy for her?
Maisie is in denial when talking to Maurice about having resolved her feelings regarding the war.
Isn't everything potentially personal therapy? Okay, okay, just because I consider that every moment may be a teaching moment does not mean others think/feel/believe the same.
2) What was it about Maisies visit to The Retreat beside the financial aspect which made her question Major Jenkins approach to such a benevolent idea? (pg 230)
The fact that he uses Major Jenkins instead of his given name. Unlike everyone else, he has not dropped his surname. Indeed, he has kept his military title. By doing both of these things, he reinforces the idea that he is not a man among equals--that he considers himself above the men or at least wants them to be intimidated by him.
3) Both Billy and Maisie had suffered from the trauma of war. Even though it was ten years after the war had finished they were still dealing with the repercussions of their experiences, both in different ways (pg 236). Billy walked the streets at night when he couldn't sleep and Maisie seemed to live only for her work. Do you think the way they are both dealing with their trauma will eventually bring acceptance of what happened ?
Well, the fact that they are both trying to help folk will help them with their healing I think, as it gives them sense of purpose.
Somehow I see walking the streets versus burying one's self in one's work as possibly being more helpful, but to each his or her own I guess.
Both could use more time talking with (crying with) someone like Kahn or Maurice I believe, anyone who knows how to successfully make it through trauma to a greater senseof wholeness.
Feeling the pain and having some opportunity to have it witnessed is good for healing I think. Note that folk who are traumatized as children have a better chance of coming out the other side less damaged when they have a supportive witness (say, another sibling), and so I think witnessing whether by counselor, lover, or friend is important to healing trauma.
(Though I am not certain if certain types of significant trauma can ever be fully healed. I've had two people who were very close to me commit suicide and I can't say that I've ever fully healed; I've accepted what happened, but there is still pain--perhaps this is healing...acceptance. I have no guilt regarding their suicides, as I think guilt in a situation like that just supports the false belief that we have more control over life than we have...and neither told me of suicidal thoughts before the suicide. Personally, I find that it has been more difficult for me to heal from abuse I saw inflicted upon another than abuse inflicted upon me.)
My brother Michael--a very sweet soul--used to go for a drive in the middle of the night and in the middle of the night the Vietnam Memorial was only about 20 minutes away by car from his home. He'd often end up there. No doubt he was not the only vet there in the wee hours of the morning. I don't think he ever got over the trauma of his war experience (and he never went to counseling either).
We talked some; he shared what happened in fairly gory detail, but I think he would have thought it excessive to keep talking to me about it. I did go to the Memorial with him. I gave him opportunity and space, but tried to respect his own healing process.
I miss my brother and talking about trauma only highlights the gaping hole he let in my life when he died three years ago.
4) How would you have imagined a home for traumatised and physically disabled returned soldiers should be run?
Oh, free hugs would be a must. Offered as often as might be needed (with the ability to reject). Crying with would be good. I think learning the about the nature of trauma and various approaches to healing would be good, as would having meaningful things to do while at the same time having the permission to stop and deal whenever necessary would be paramount. Not just permission from those "in charge" (certainly there ought to be equality of spirit), but permission that the healing person gives him/herself.
So I guess I think people ought to be given permission--ought to give themselves permission--to fall apart so they can put themselves back together again.
I think people are often afraid that if they go toward the pain it will consume them. I have never found this to be true. It's a difficult practice to walk toward the pain, but ultimately rewarding.
5) What are your feelings after reading these chapters? Do you see any new themes arising?
I guess because the topic is trauma and I've survived a lot of trauma, I am unable to have much perspective while reading. Themes and the like--stuff that might ordinarily jump out at me--are not jumping out at me. Although I am enjoying the book immensely, I feel the weight of the trauma. And so I guess, in some way the book is healing for me.
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Sunbeam
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 08:15 |
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Hi Claire,
I have never been to Ireland but I believe it is a beautiful country and I have read of a couple books about it. The books are about the history of Ireland in the form of two novels written so far. The first book is called 'Dublin 'and the second 'Ireland 'both by Edward Rutherford.
Although they are novels the history events are accurate but moulded around a story. I love those type of books.
I found this thread if you would like to know more about Northern Ireland, I don't know much but it is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Northern_Ireland
There were lots of men who didn't serve in WW1 due to health conditions or other considerations. My own grandfather on my mothers side didn't either as far as I know. He was involved in the iron and steel industry which was crucial to the war effort for ship bulding etc. People who worked on the land were in great need also and then there were the firemen and home guard. It is very likely you grandfather was involved in the war effort in some way despite his infirmaties.
I have been so lucky to have known all my grandparents none of them died before I was twenty so I had lots of stories of bygone days. It is worth finding out about your mothers stories now as it will give you such insight into your heritage.
Your late father and your brother would relate well to the story of Maisie, but would probably not have liked to bring up old wounds. However it is giving us a good idea of what they all went through and a great appreciation of what those men did for us all, whatever war they were in.
You may have a point there with the CWD inheritence. Perhaps we should all investigate out heritage!
I'll close on Juanita's saying about being open minded, I like that and will keep it in mind for the future,
Take care, Lynn.
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eClaire
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Posted: Sat Nov 22nd, 2008 09:30 |
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Hey Lynn,
I will have to read that link in detail when my brain is up to it. I do have a vague sense of the history of the isle; I was just unsure of the involvement of folk from there in WWI, which the link makes clear.
My mother is protestant, but her family tree was divided among protestants and catholics, and a cousin of mine, raised protestant, married a catholic. My family has been very much affected by the modern day "troubles" that erupted.
Famously, at least to my mother's personal story, as a young woman, she was once hired and then promptly fired from a job because she was not catholic (despite the rampant discrimination in reverse). Turns out her maiden name was more often than not a catholic name (as is her given name) and it was a catholic cousin who told the catholic business owner on her and she lived on a border street (a street of protestants and catholics bordering divided neighborhoods). Hmmm.... And they say blood is thicker than water...just not in that particular case I guess.
I happened to be in Belfast the night the modern "troubles" began (at the very time and the very street where buses were overturned and homemade bombs thrown...though at the other end of the street and oblivious to the new round of troubles until my cousins and I got back to the home of my worried relatives who were watching it on the news), and I remember seeing soldiers on the street when we left a couple of days later. It was only when we made it home that night that it made sense as to why the last bus run of the evening contained only us when normally it would have been full, as we were in a catholic neighborhood attending a dance and were perhaps the only protestants who did not get a clue as to what was going on and get on an earlier bus home.
There's been a lot of pain on both sides of the isle and folk still stir the pot despite advances toward peace, which is a shame, Northern Ireland is beautiful and the people most friendly.
The stupidity of the discrimination and violence led my mother, who lived through many a troubled time, to do her level best to make sure my brother and I were not introduced to racism in the US as young children, as racism smacked of the same senselessness to her. I finally got a clue at age 6 when we moved to Maryland and I went to public school.
I've been in N. Ireland when Belfast was under lock and key (literally gated) and you had to have your car inspected to drive in (as well as any handbag or package before going into any store). Indeed, I once walked out of a pub because a fellow walked in and asked the barkeep to watch his back pack for him and then promptly left the pub. Nothing happened, but I wasn't taking any chances. I also remember seeing a British tank going down an empty street. I was the only person on the street, and it occurred to me that the tank was a great target (British soldiers and police stations were constant targets during this period), and it occurred to me that I might be overlooked and taken out with the tank, and so I stepped into a doorway of a business until the tank went by. Again, nothing happened.
On another visit, I slept through bombs going off on the hill behind my relative's home where I was staying and helocopters going over head one night; my ex-Y and I attributed our ability to sleep through such noise to living in Virginia where we get incredibly noisy summer storms at night. My relatives were in awe that we slept like babies while everyone else was up wringing their hands.
My mother was once in a car with her sisters and a cousin and were stopped and questioned in the country by hooded and heavily armed IRA men.
My one Aunt and Uncle (and cousins) lived on a street that had both catholics and protestants because it straddled the catholic and protestant area (the one with the hill behind it). My cousin lost her best friend, as every Catholic household was intimidated by the IRA to move (and stop associating with the protestants on the street). I believe my cousin in this, as the same cousin went on to become best friends with the daughter of a famous member of the IRA to be sent to prison for murder, and then she ended up marrying someone wrongly convicted for murder among in fighting of an outlawed protestant group. During the time she was best friends with this young woman (a friendship that they had to keep quiet), this cousin and brother took me to a Chinese take out. I made the mistake of calling them by their given names, which were obviously protestant. I didn't know we were in a catholic neighborhood and they made a bee-line for the door. Needless--to-say, few of my second cousins have been given names that were traditionally and obviously protestant.
These are the light stories.
Interesting what Wikipedia says about "The changing British position to Northern Ireland was represented by the visit of Queen Elizabeth II to Parliament Buildings in Stormont, where she met nationalist ministers from the SDLP as well as unionist ministers and spoke of the right of people who perceive themselves as Irish to be treated as equal citizens along with those who regard themselves as British."
My mother has always considered herself ethnically Irish and British by nationality. (Personally, I don't like hyphenated identities and do not call myself Irish-American like some folk whose Irish relatives immigrated here eons ago.) I think all of my protestant cousins think of themselves this way--Irish identity but British citizens. My mother never did become a US citizen, and at 80, there's no chance she'll go through that process now. But when people ask in response to her accent, "What are you?" (rude, eh?), she says, "Irish."
I do hope conditions continue to improve there.
Claire
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Deb Grabetz
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Posted: Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 16:56 |
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Hello Lynn...and all...
This is such a great book and yes, I am behind but still very much enjoying this. These three chapters in particular I've really liked.
1) Priscilla enters the story almost like a whirl wind. She is such a different personality from Maisie. The two girls make friends and seem to get along well. What do you think makes this friendship work?
Ah it must be the classic opposites attract. As in this case it could not be closer to the truth! I have always thought it interesting how and why ppl are attracted to one another in so many kinds of relationships. I suppose the one theme is though that each is able to give the other, something that they both need, are lacking or admire in another. In Priscilla's case, it is surely that she needs some stability, a grounding force away from all of the social status that she brought up in; a simpler environment, let's say, that Maisie would provide. Maisie is surely far from simple but she has some very grounding characteristics that Priscilla admires.
On the opposite end is Maisie, who in my opinion must be totally captivated by Priscilla's energetic, free spirited lifestyle. Breaking the rules, hair in the wind kind of a woman. I like Priscilla, she reminds me a lot of myself. I suppose I have probably behaved a bit better than she, because I've always had rules and my children at a young age...which is the quickest way to ground someone that I've ever seen....but she is the gal that would best mirror me. I have many of the Maisies in my life, that keep me centered, for the most part, or as much as they are able. My husband is a very grounded guy. Because of this and the fact that by career he is a supervisor he has always been able to steer my strengths in the right direction, well most of the time!! Many of my friends are dutifully fun loving but they need the prodding, that I so love to encourage with!
I think too much of oneself, would be just that, too much! We need to see others viewpoints to learn and grow. We need to experience other ways of life to learn and this is where I think these two meshed.
2) Maurice sent Maisie a gift to open on her arrival at Girton College. It was a book with blank pages meant to be for her daily writings. Inside the cover Maurice had inscribed words written by Soren Kierkegaard. ' There is nothing of which everyman is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming.'
Would you say these words apply to everyone or would some people have an innate knowledge of their capabilities and not be afraid of the journey
In my opinion, there are people of two different kinds. I learned this from a wholistic gal, who works a lot with iridology. Iridology BTW, for those who are not familiar, is a study of the iris to determine health and traits of a person. She taught me that we are born with different cores, or so this is her thoughts from what she has learned. These cores play a big role in who you are and how you manage things. Some people have very strong cores, while others have very weak cores. Thinking about this I would have to say that I think our environments and life experiences have a lot to do with what happens to this core but again, I don't think a basic core will change.
Those with a strong core are basically not affected by too much. They seem to challenge life itself, rather than life challenging them. Those who tend to have a weaker core react differently. So getting back to the question, yes, there are those who have a strong sense of self and don't question their journey or maybe do so with less of a thought process and ingrained determination!
3) Although Maisie and Priscilla came from different back grounds. Maisie having suffered tragedy and poverty, Priscilla seemingly being sheltered and cared for.
In what way did Maisie seem to have advantages and opportunities to develop herself that Priscilla did not have?
I like this question. I've always felt adversity makes a person stronger and pushes them to do things that they may have otherwise avoided. In every situation that we are challenged with, we learn how to correct a mistake, either to avoid it happening again or how to approach in a better way. With either example, we learn a lesson.
Maisie losing her mom had overcome a huge obstacle in itself at a young age and this is loss. Have you ever thought that this is the reason a pet can be such a valuable tool to a child...for when they lose that pet, they are taught to grieve their loss and move on...either by way of a new pet or by the memories that they have of the old.
When we experience little challenge and are *too cared for* as I'll put it, it is harder to adapt to the opportunities of life and they are sure out there! I always tried to help my children through situations with their long term emotional health in mind, rather than for the situation at hand. If they were going through a tough time, my first thought as a mom was to coddle them...yet I knew better. I knew the life lesson would do them far more good...than my short term coddle!
4) Maisie throws caution to the wind and accompanies Priscilla to Simon's leaving party. This is a big step out of her comfort zone.
Can anyone relate to the possible feelings and emotions Maisie would be feeling at the party?
Oh yes!Even as adventurous as I am, there is always that twinge at doing something new. The twinge doesn't usually hold me back but isn't that just human nature for most of us when doing something outside of our box or our comfort zone let's say?? This was a prime example of an opportunity for Maisie's growth. She adapted well, in my opinion. If you remember as they were leaving for the party, she was a bit nervous and the auther describes this for us. By the end of the chapter her whole personna had changed!
I relate this to going to the airlines. Wow, talk about a career change. Although in customer service for many years prior, there is the same correlation, the whole industry is night and day to jobs that we are familiar with. Being away from home, being in the air during the course of your working day, so many personalities in one small tube! Even the terminology was unique----what a leap of faith I took when I changed careers...it was scary yet new and exciting.
When I return for flight training again, which I will have to do to keep my job...it will all seem so much more simpler than it did four years ago when I came in green to the airlines.
5) Maisie and Enid met at the station cafe. Enid was upset after her farewell with James,she let her mask fall and opened up her heart to Maisie. “ Maisie I never meant anything. Really I didn't James will come back. I know he will. And this war is changing everything. 'ave you noticed that?
When the likes of me can earn a good living even in wartime, the likes of the better-offs will have to change, won't they?
How was this the beginning of change for the better-offs? Do you think this decline happened very quickly?
I think the best way I can answer this was more that this was an accepted socio-economic status for so long the rich being rich and the poor being poorer, that it took many events in history for a change to come about.
Although now, without getting too knee deep into politics, I think this is part of what we are struggling with currently in our economy. I believe the pendulum swung just a bit too far trying to make things more *equal* for all. Without getting into a huge discussion, I believe most will understand what I'm saying!
6) Do you see any new themes emerging. Is there anything you would like to add about the characters or the storyline so far?
Well, we surely have seen a change coming about for Maisie. Leaving her comfort zone, going away to school and now moving in another direction helping at the hospital with the possibility of being transferred to France.
There was one part of the book that I liked that I would like to quote. I found this very representative of being on the MP...
p.141
"There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming."
When I think back to my beginning the MP I remember this. Being afraid that I could not take the IP, adapt to dark glasses and covering up, deal with the demanding length of time that this protocol seemed to take, the explanations. Yet when I took that leap, I found it to be much easier than I ever could have imagined. I realized just how much I was capable of and now as I see the signs of regaining my health and returning stamina, I'm also reminded of how much I have yet to offer in life not only to others but to myself. A part of me that has yet to be explored and expanded on. A couple weeks ago, I started back for piano lessons. I've been wanting to do for years as I play basic piano, but with much effort. My brain fog and attention span kept me away for years....I'm now at a point that I am absorbing things around me at such a higher level...it's pretty cool in fact! My teacher says I'm picking up at such a fast rate he's moving me along in pages...This morning I hooked up a device to my computer that was a breeze for me...when a year ago I would have become so frustrated with trying to sort out the instructions, I would have set aside and not wished to try. I love being able to *think* again....talk about possibilities!
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eClaire
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Posted: Sun Nov 23rd, 2008 19:53 |
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