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Russ
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 12:08 |
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I have been looking for a new apartment/house to rent because my current apartment is causing MCS problems (air fresheners in the hallways, relatively new building with new cabinets and new carpets, right above the parking garage, right near a gas station…see My Previous Post).
I had been having trouble finding a place that fit all of the major criteria for someone with MCS… a stand-alone house (no contamination from hallways/neighbors), an older building (minimal outgassing), hardwood floors instead of carpet, and electric heat rather than gas or oil.
But recently I found a place that fit all of this criteria (the only one I’ve found so far that did). It is great in a lot of other ways too and seems like it could be the prefect place. Only problem is that I am allergic to cats and the previous tenants had a cat.
I did not notice any problems in the 10 minutes or so that I looked at it, and not having any carpets should minimize how much of a problem this is, but I have still found some resources online that say that cat dander can remain in the air for months and that anyone with a cat allergy should not buy or rent a place that previously had cats.
Is there anyone with cat allergies or a family member with them who has experience moving into a place where the previous occupants had cats?
Thanks!
Last edited on Tue Feb 24th, 2009 12:18 by Russ
____________________
Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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BARNEY
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 13:13 |
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Russ,
We have managed apartment houses and has quite a situation with tenants who had cats.
This is how we fixed the apt for the next tenant:
1. There is a product on the market that you can SEAL the floors with (however, I do not remember the name of it). You might need to have someone else do this for you.
2. Before you move in, open all windows and air the new place for a several days before you move in. You can then get a big honeywell hepa filter and run that also.
I always ran 2 of the big hepa filters preMP and I also had an ionizer that sat on the dash of my truck and plugged into the cigarette lighter. We drove thru areas of (wood) slash burns in Oregon (w/windows up) and could not smell the smoke, so you might also put a couple of ionizers in your home. I got mine off of QVC, but I am sure other places sell them toooo.
Hope this is a help to you.
HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!!BARNEY
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Russ
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 14:22 |
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BARNEY wrote: 1. There is a product on the market that you can SEAL the floors with (however, I do not remember the name of it). You might need to have someone else do this for you.
Are you thinking of products like Carpet Seal ? Wondering if sealing the floors would still be necessary for hardwood floors. Did you have to do this for all floors or just carpets?
Thanks Barney!
____________________
Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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BARNEY
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 15:23 |
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Russ,
Due to my allergies preMP, my husband, did all of this and I do not know the name of it, but he sealed all wood floors. Dealing with me with all my allergies, my husband was very good about taking care of this for all of our tenants.
We had a 1915 building in downtown Portland, Oregon. It had beautiful hardwood floors (some had been covered in carpet). If the floors were to bad to fix, then we put in new carpet but my husband was good at bringing them back to life. We also had 'murphy beds' that slid in under the closet..it was a lovely place (and we had wonderful tenants who looked after me, they knew how sick I was).
For the carpet, I would either have it professionally cleaned with something you could handle and air (vinegar may be the thing, the smell goes away really quick) or if your new floors are in great shape, ask the landlord if you can have the carpet taken out, then you can have them mopped, waxed and buffed and you will have a lovely and breathe-friendly place to live.
You can also find breathe friendly paint for the walls which would help seal anything that may be in the walls or previous paint. The best thing to do, is everything BEFORE you move in and air it.
Hope this is helping, let me know if there is anything more I can suggest.
I was so bad, I even hung new shower curtains outside until I could stand them in the house. I really feel for you and all MCS suffers........it is bad.
HANG IN THERE, WE WILL MAKE IT!!!BARNEY
PS If you lived close enough, I would come and do this for you after we looked for the perfect place. No joke.
Last edited on Tue Feb 24th, 2009 15:28 by BARNEY
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Russ
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 15:36 |
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| Thanks a ton Barney!
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Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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Dody
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Feb 24th, 2009 21:47 |
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Russ,
Cats... I would worry. I don't normally have problems with animal dander myself. But I have a friend who's very allergic to cat dander, and man, there was no place in my old house that didn't make her horribly reactive. Cat or no cat, air or no air. There was just no escaping it.
We have been removing old carpet from our hardwood floors, partly because our DOGS have so many allergies (Th1 I suppose...). Our vet encouraged us in this project, saying "Your carpets are probably composed about 90% of dust mites by now."
Carpets, upholstery, curtains--everything that makes life soft and comfy--hang on not only to dust mites but to pet dander.
Barney sounds like she really knows her stuff on both MCS and managing buildings in the real world. So her suggestions are probably going to work. And the almost-perfect place is hard to find. So I hate to be the skunk at the party, but unless pet dander is one of your lesser triggers, yes, I would worry about past cats.
Thinking of you and hoping for the PERFECT place to manifest for you, Dody
____________________
Lyme Arrhythmia Vertigo Meningitis Bipolar lithium tylenol cover up outside mod low lux inside ModPh2Jul07 Ph2Apr08 Ph3Feb09 D25 Oct09 7 Mar10 4
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Alayne
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 05:58 |
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Russ, I was allergic to cats myself - very. When moving (ages back), I read that cat dander can basically float all around, sticking to walls, ceilings, floors, appliances, etc. It was advised to wipe EVERYTHING down with a dander minimizing wipe. Probably soap and water would help as well.
Either wash curtains and such very well (with anti pet dander soap) or get rid of soft items of fabric, absorbing materials, etc.
AND run a HEPA air filter.
You won't get everything, but, this helps a great deal. If you're incredibly allergic, then you may have to take greater precautions or not consider it. (I would get asthma, hives, and sneeze non-stop from cats.)
Oh yeah, sometimes a new paint job can also help (the non-allergy causing paint).
Good luck!
Alayne
P.S. I'm fine with cats now due to the MP.
____________________
CFS/FM Sick 30+yrs. NoIRs/Zinc oxide. 6/05:25D-34, 1,25D-69; 11/07:25D-8 1,25-37. 11/17/05-Ph1, 5/06-MPh2, 12/06-MPh2#2, 6/07-MPh2#3,1/08-Ph2, 4/08-Ph3. 4/09-10/09 weaned off abx. Benicar q4-6h. Heavy metal chelation as recent adjunctive therapy.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 09:23 |
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AND run a HEPA air filter
Despite what Consumer Reports has been publishing, I found HEPA filters to be ineffective, as they don't filter out the smallest particles. I always used Electrostatic precipitators, including the Smarter Image "Ionic Breeze" range, but mostly similar to the Sears range (which has slimmed down since Consumer Reports started bucketing these filters):
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03285264000P
I found that Ozone was not an issue, and the charged-particles-sticking-to-walls issue is actually a benefit to Th1 folk. Anywhere they stick is better than leaving the junk in the air 
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Jeannine
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 10:01 |
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Russ and other who need info...
Be sure to read the reviews for the sears product Dr. Marshall links to in the previous post. Some good info there!
Jeannine
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CFS FM Lyme Morgellon's 125D49 Ph1Aug06 25D <4 april 08)Prozac Valium Aleve ModPh2May07 Ph2Apr08 NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home
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Russ
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Posted: Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:29 |
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Thanks Dody, Alayne, Dr. Marshall, and Jeannine.
Alayne, did you find that as long as you did those things you mentioned, that you were fine moving into a place that previously had cats?
No carpets, drapes, or fabrics that are staying behind so that should make it easier.
I don't get hives or have breathing problems, just really bad nasal allergies. At least they used to be really bad...haven't really had any contact with cats since starting the MP. But there seems to be a lot of IP going on in the olfactory nerves...hence perhaps part of the reason my MCS symptoms are so bad right now. Not sure if traditional allergies tend to get worse when MCS gets worse.
Thanks again everybody.
Last edited on Thu Feb 26th, 2009 11:38 by Russ
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Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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Alayne
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 02:39 |
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Russ wrote: Thanks Dody, Alayne, Dr. Marshall, and Jeannine.
Alayne, did you find that as long as you did those things you mentioned, that you were fine moving into a place that previously had cats?
No carpets, drapes, or fabrics that are staying behind so that should make it easier.
I don't get hives or have breathing problems, just really bad nasal allergies. At least they used to be really bad...haven't really had any contact with cats since starting the MP. But there seems to be a lot of IP going on in the olfactory nerves...hence perhaps part of the reason my MCS symptoms are so bad right now. Not sure if traditional allergies tend to get worse when MCS gets worse.
Russ, I actually did okay. AND I had terrible MCS at the time. My place was as dustmite, dust, dander, chemical proof as I could make it. Hardwood and linoleum floors throuought and metal blinds at the windows. I see what Dr. Marshall says about HEPA filters, but at the time, they were a lifesaver for me. I kept them running 24/7.
It'll probably be hard at times to diffferentiate cat nasal symptoms from IP nasal symptoms. I think my nose ran at least the entire first year of the MP and still does quite often.
Good luck!
Alayne
____________________
CFS/FM Sick 30+yrs. NoIRs/Zinc oxide. 6/05:25D-34, 1,25D-69; 11/07:25D-8 1,25-37. 11/17/05-Ph1, 5/06-MPh2, 12/06-MPh2#2, 6/07-MPh2#3,1/08-Ph2, 4/08-Ph3. 4/09-10/09 weaned off abx. Benicar q4-6h. Heavy metal chelation as recent adjunctive therapy.
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LR
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Posted: Fri Feb 27th, 2009 17:47 |
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Dear Russ,
If this place you found really is perfect except for the previous cat, (Ie there is no carpet and the drapes can be cleaned -- with water and unscented detergent -- or replaced with tolerable ones, and there are no other soft furnishings) then I think making it clean enough is probably managable.
The reason I would think you should probably consider taking this place is that it is exceedingly difficult to find any tolerable place when you have severe sensitivities. I know many members of the Canadian association of which I was a national Executive board member, and a branch president, who had to live outside, even in Canadian winters, either in a car or in a tent, or on someone's porch, due to the problems of finding tolerable housing. And for those who did find accommodation, none of us ever found a "perfect" place, unless we custom built (and even then some people couldn't live in their home after it was custom built for their sensitivities.) So since you have found an "almost perfect place"; and because your reaction to cats is only nasal (rather than neurological, for example -- no seizures, confusion and brain fog, extreme fatigue, mood swings, etc etc); and because it sounds like it is all hard smooth surfaces, I think it is possibly to make it almost perfect and certainly it may be the best you can find in a reasonable period of searching.
Someone, preferably not you, should thoroughly vacuum and then wash everything -- floors, walls and ceilings if possible, definitely cupboards, counters etc. If you need to seal anything (floors, cupboards etc.) be careful what products you use as many of them offgas for months, if not longer. Avoid waxing the floors or woodwork, and test any products you use to ensure you tolerate it. Avoid perfumed products (most of them are!) as the artificial scents often contain neurotoxins. Just because it says it is "Green" doesn't mean it is healthy for indoor air.
AFM makes products specifically for people with sensitivites. These products are generally tolerable for those with chemical sensitivities, but you always need to test individually before using anything. They will sell you a small sample for testing before you buy. Their wood floor polyureseal is excellent, but highly toxic while being applied and I find for at least a week afterward. Nonetheless, once it is offgassed (which is for a very short period relative to most sealers) it is pretty well inert. You could not apply it yourself, as the fumes are terrible initially.
Having been very ill in the 1980s with severe environmental sensitivities, including virtually all foods, chemicals, molds and many natural inhalants, I recently built a house specifically for sensitivities, solar heated to avoid products of combustion and petroleum products. I used virtually no chemicals in the house, and the few that I did were individually tested, and most were AFM products including their "gym floor" polyureseal on woodwork and cabinets. (The hardwood floors were pre-baked which is more inert than sealing yourself, but it doesn't accomplish what you need to do, which is seal off any cat dander and hair from under the existing hardwood floors.)
My brother and sister-in-law, after years of complaining about their allergies to other people's pets when they visited friends, bought Portuguese water dogs which are supposed to be less allergenic, and even my mother is able to stay there, despite her severe asthma to dogs. They initially used a special dog shampoo on the dogs which is supposed to reduce residual allergies to the dander. I don't know if you could use that in cleaning your potential new place.
The other suggestions about airing and using a Hepa filter are all useful too. While it seems Dr. Marshall has no problem with the electrostatic air filters, many people with severe sensitivities and lung issues have experienced problems with the ozone these produce. The Canadian government researchers in housing for the environmentally sensitive recommend avoiding electostatic air cleaners and using HEPA instead. But most so called HEPAs may not be true HEPAs, so find ones which are actually sealed so the particles don't bypass the filter and one where you can use filters made from things you tolerate (test first).
Most people with sensitivities have to balance the need for filters with the air contaminants that the filters introduce. I have found that most people with sensitivities find that filters are useful for specific short-term situations, which is ideally what you would be doing -- maybe running the machine for a week before moving in. However, some "universal reactors" may end up using them because they react more severely to the other things in their air, than to the filtration materials, and oils, etc which are introduced by the filter machine (or ozone in the case of the electrostatic machines). What we counsel people with is to focus mostly on source control instead of filtration -- which is what you are doing -- finding a tolerable apartment and cleaning it well to make it more tolerable.
As for paints, safer ones are becoming much more available now. Just make sure to:
a) TEST FIRST to make sure you will tolerate the product.
b) Chose the zero or low VOC paints to test from, NOT the "low odour". Low odour paints include chemicals to paralyze nerves in your nose so you can't smell it. Low VOC paints simply have less volatile organic compounds to offgas into your air supply.
c) Paint before introducing any soft furnishings or draperies so that they do not "adsorb" and prolong the offgassing period -- ie absorb the chemical fumes and then release them over time. Wait at least a week before moving in.
Farrow and Ball have a ZERO VOC paint, based on a 400 year old recipe which is very high end in terms of performance, but is also extremely tolerable. (Their primer is a low VOC and I did notice it, but their regular paint is almost unnoticeable and I could even apply it myself -- but always test for your individual sensitivites).
HOWEVER, if you are getting someone to seal floors and paint before you move in, do not run your HEPA while this is going on. Leave windows open if possible for the whole time and preferably a week thereafter. If you run the HEPA while the chemicals are offgassing, the HEPA filter will absorb the fumes and release them later. Having the windows open during and after will help a lot.
There is also a baking-off technique whereby after everything is done, you close it all up and raise the heat as hot as you can for a couple of days. This will accelerate the release of fumes. Then air out the house and then use the HEPA for a while afterwards. You will need to discard the HEPA filter and replace it, if you intend to use the HEPA filter while you are living there.
Good luck!
LR
PS. If you are interested I can send you the link for the guides we did for accommodations for people with sensitivities in schools and workplaces, the later of which has been also published on the Canadian government's Human Rights Commission website.Last edited on Fri Feb 27th, 2009 17:48 by LR
____________________
MP:ph2:Nov08;PhIJun08;DXs:Environmental sensitivities, chronic fatigue, celiac, osteoporosis, calcified low thyroid, extreme low magnesium/B-12 etc. Jan07 D:52nmol/l=20.8ng/ml; 1,25D:180pmol/l=75pg/l June08: D:15.6; 1,25D:52.9
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Russ
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Posted: Sun Mar 1st, 2009 10:55 |
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| Thanks Alayne, LR, and everyone!
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Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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Deb Grabetz
Moderator
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Posted: Wed Mar 4th, 2009 19:18 |
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Alayne,
I noticed your post and the fact that your nose ran your first year on the MP. I've recognized myself that I have had consistent nasal IP since starting the MP and I find it not so surprising as I've always been dx'd with allergies of some sort, as far back as a child. As I began learning about MP, I recognized MCS to be a problem also, now that it had a name for me to recognize and how sensitive I've been to smell.
It has been exciting for me, as I'm now going into my second year on the MP, to have days where I breathe clearly. I must have had swollen nasal passages for the last 30 years at least! Maybe longer...
Run...Nose...Run!!!! Keep clearing those bugs...
____________________
Sarcoidosis/lungs, lymph,liver, GI, neuro, D12542, Ph17/07, MPh2 9/07, B12, cover up, NoIRs,return to work after 2 years off- 4/07D2511
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Alayne
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Posted: Wed Mar 4th, 2009 22:36 |
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Deb, I remember what a unique sensation it was to finally be able to breathe out of both nostrils at the same time. I think this occurred in my first 6 mos on the MP. Even though my nose still runs at times due to IP, I can generally breathe deeply through both sides. It's great!
Thanks for reminding me. Glad to hear your schnozz is clearing up as well.
Russ, hope you keep us updated on what you do. Good luck!
Cheers,
Alayne
Last edited on Wed Mar 4th, 2009 22:37 by Alayne
____________________
CFS/FM Sick 30+yrs. NoIRs/Zinc oxide. 6/05:25D-34, 1,25D-69; 11/07:25D-8 1,25-37. 11/17/05-Ph1, 5/06-MPh2, 12/06-MPh2#2, 6/07-MPh2#3,1/08-Ph2, 4/08-Ph3. 4/09-10/09 weaned off abx. Benicar q4-6h. Heavy metal chelation as recent adjunctive therapy.
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LR
Registered
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Posted: Mon Mar 9th, 2009 18:15 |
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In response to a request for the guides for accommodating people with environmental sensitivites, here is the link.
http://www.harepublishing.com
Click on the link for environmental sensitivies and scroll down to the reports.
The one for Accommodating people with sensitivies in the Workplace is also on the Canadian Human Rights Commission Website, but this site, maintained by my co-author has both reports (the one for the Workplace and the one for Schools) and associated documents.
____________________
MP:ph2:Nov08;PhIJun08;DXs:Environmental sensitivities, chronic fatigue, celiac, osteoporosis, calcified low thyroid, extreme low magnesium/B-12 etc. Jan07 D:52nmol/l=20.8ng/ml; 1,25D:180pmol/l=75pg/l June08: D:15.6; 1,25D:52.9
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eClaire
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 10:57 |
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I used to get severe flu like symptoms that would last for up to three weeks when exposed to cats for as little as a couple of hours (essentially the cat allergy would set off a bout of CFS like symptoms and bronchitus, sinusitus, etc.). When I moved into an apartment that had had cats (this can happen anywhere any time because tenants do hide cats from landlords), I washed everything from top to bottom (that is, friends of mine washed everything, every square inch).
I think the ozone machine that Doc Marshall mentioned is a great idea. I used one in the past and all sorts of particles drop out of the air (I would hope this would be true of cat dander) so much so that it was better for me to allow the dust to float around in my bedroom than to run the ozone machine and have it all drop on my nose. (If someone tells me this does not happen, s/he can argue with my sinuses, which stopped having a fit when I stopped using the ozone machine...and my place looked nicer too without a heavy film over it.)
HOWEVER, I think if an ozone machine were run before the apartment was cleaned, you'd probably have a good shot of having a lot of the dander wiped up during the cleaning. (I wouldn't put any products you are not familiar with in the place despite the labeling. I can't imagine any product that seals is entirely non-toxic. I still react to VOC free paint.)
I think, to be safe, you'd probably want to keep a week or two worth of pillow cases in a protected container and change them frequently for the first six months (I've read that that is about how long dander hangs in the air on average...if the ozone machine doesn't make it all fall and stick). This way, when you are sleeping at least your pillow case will be relatively clean. (You could change it each evening, keeping it under the covers during the day.) After six months, I'd replace my pillow as well.
Good luck! Claire
____________________
42mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob IBS/GERD osteopor; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings; Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08
* Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan09 * Olm.alone.Jun10
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LR
Registered
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 15:14 |
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Dear Claire,
Please note that Dr. Marshall was not recommending an ozone machine! He suggested an electrostatic air filter which is quite different. Ozone is dangerous, and damaging, in particular, to lungs.
The issue discussed was whether to use an electrostatic air filter (which usually produce very small amounts of ozone as a byproduct) or to use a HEPA air filter which does not.
Ozone machines can be used where there are no people or pets present to kill mold or bacteria on objects. It is important that people don't go out and get ozone machine to run in their homes or offices!!
Your suggestion about pillows and pillow cases is great. However, it is obviously not only pet dander that is of concern. I always double pillow case my pillows, use washable pillows, and actually DO wash them. The quantity of dead skin, mold and fungi, bacteria, viruses, dust mites, etc. accumulated over time in pillows is unbelievable and very unhealthy. I usually soak mine in hydrogen peroxide for a day or more (turning at least once) then wash them in unscented detergent and thoroughly dry them. Make sure they are VERY dry as soon as possible, or it will promote mold growth, which is very unhealthy. ( I also sometimes ozonate them by hanging them outside in the sun on a hot summer day after washing, for additional germicidal /antifungal treatment.) The ozone generated by the sun on laundry during hot weather disappates quite rapidly. I have noticed, however, that the ozone generated by the sun on laundry on sunny but very cold days (say minus 30, for example) after you bring it in the house, seems to linger for some time.
LRLast edited on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 15:37 by LR
____________________
MP:ph2:Nov08;PhIJun08;DXs:Environmental sensitivities, chronic fatigue, celiac, osteoporosis, calcified low thyroid, extreme low magnesium/B-12 etc. Jan07 D:52nmol/l=20.8ng/ml; 1,25D:180pmol/l=75pg/l June08: D:15.6; 1,25D:52.9
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eClaire
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Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 18:51 |
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Thanks for correcting my inarticulate description of the air filter!
Good idea about the pillows.
Claire
____________________
42mo on MP; CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermob IBS/GERD osteopor; 125D48 25D<4;
NoIRs during most daylight outings; Ph1.Dec06 * ModPh2.Jun07 * AbxBrk.Mar-May08
* Ph2.Oct-Nov08 * Ph1.Jan09 * Olm.alone.Jun10
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Russ
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Posted: Wed Jun 10th, 2009 00:49 |
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UPDATE:
I made the move into the house where the previous tenants had a cat and I have had no problems with allergies. There are no carpets in the house and it was cleaned pretty good before I moved in so that may have helped. Also I don't think my allergy to cats is as severe as it was when I was a kid. The main purpose of the move, which was to get out of a place that was terrible in terms of aggravating MCS symptoms, was also a success. I am doing a ton better in the new place. I posted a more complete update on the MCS improvement here.
Thanks to everyone who helped with my questions. The MP sites are such a valuable resource.
Russ
____________________
Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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