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Dave L
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 15:28 |
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Hey friends:
Trevor noted on my Phase 3 study report that my 25-D (at 25.5) must be down to 12 for real bug-killing efficacy. Here is part of my reply:
"Thanks, Trevor, I will watch out.
I expect that I will be building up my Zith doses faster than my 25-D drops, thus I anticipate being close to max doses (assuming my biochemical cart doesn't tip over first) before I reach therapeutic levels of 25-D."
That said, I posed these three questions to him. Some others might be wondering something along these lines:
1. Have I been killing bugs so far in the past year, given that my 25-D has been between 30 and 25? Or have I been marking time? (scarcely any herxing to date)
2. Strategically, would it be better for a person with prophylactic objectives such as me to start the MP after my 25D drops to 12? (And thus save 12-18 months of Benicar and abx and doctor expenses?) If one were to do this, the expenses might be less and the efficacy of the abx program greater on a day-for-day basis.
On the other hand:
3. Is the path I am on (ramp up abx while bringing 25-D down) a way to perhaps manage and minimize herxing over the whole span? My herxing to date through Phase 1 and Mod Phase 2 has been minimal, and I am speculating that my dropping 25D may be incremental enough that I might not be knocked sideways as I continue on Phase 3.
Interested in your thoughts; I will also pose these on the Lifestyles site (MP as Prophylactic thread) for general perusal.
regards
DaveLast edited on Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 16:35 by Dave L
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Dave Loeks: High 1,25-D (54.2 pg/ml) 25D - 30.4 ng/ml no apparent symptoms, otherwise fit, healthy. Reduced Vit. D intake, moderate reduction in light exposure (outside work). Started Benicar 9 April, 2008; Benicar and Mino 23 April, 2008.
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John McDonald
Administrator
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Posted: Mon Feb 23rd, 2009 16:24 |
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Dave - I won't speak to the expenses, that is pretty much an individual's calculation. However I have long argued that even if your immune system were completely shut down, even so, the antibiotics will still interfere with the ribosomes of the microbes. The microbes won't be as effective in any task that requires making proteins, and that is pretty much every task. Ask yourself; would you raise a microbial family in a place that has minocycline littered about the neighborhood?
But cost, efficiency and efficacy are a different calculus.
-john
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Dave L
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Apr 13th, 2009 12:50 |
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Just an update on the prophylactic front. Been increasing Zith by 1/16 tab each cycle; now up to 5/16 (8/16 being half tab, or max dose).
Still doing fine; no apparent herx, other than getting cramps and twitches in legs time to time. My mental life (sharpness, quickness, drive) seems improved, but its hard for me to know for sure if that's an MP effect instead of from other life processes.
Haven't had blood work since Dec., maybe will do that in May before I may have to take a break from MP because of tentatively scheduled back surgery in June. As has been suggested, ,my lack of herxing may be due to elevated 25D (I was 25 units in December); don't know until I check it again.
cheers, all
Dave
Last edited on Mon Apr 13th, 2009 12:52 by Dave L
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Dave Loeks: High 1,25-D (54.2 pg/ml) 25D - 30.4 ng/ml no apparent symptoms, otherwise fit, healthy. Reduced Vit. D intake, moderate reduction in light exposure (outside work). Started Benicar 9 April, 2008; Benicar and Mino 23 April, 2008.
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Debz
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 03:46 |
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Dave,
I'm laughing so hard right now, I'm into 2wks of phase 3. I'm going to print you're post and have my family read it. It is what it is, at times my old self pops out in big smiles and I don't need a reason. Then some days I think I have Alzhiemers when I can't find what I did with the beans, oh ya......I put them on the wrong shelf. It's not brain damage, I'm just not focused!
Debbie
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Dx-Sarc(collagen disorder)/Herpes Whitlow 03, Neuro,sinus,Hyster,ear. Mr Muscle-hayfever,acute/chron bronchitis, pneumonia,hilar adenopathy,liver tumor&lesion,lg spleen,strep throat,thrush, psyco Mp:4/8/08 mino & Noirs,4/28/08 benicar
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Dave L
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 20:59 |
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Debbie, you got that right! Glad you can laugh - after all is said and done, its still the best medicine. And the way I seem to conduct myself, all too appropriate....
Dave
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Dave Loeks: High 1,25-D (54.2 pg/ml) 25D - 30.4 ng/ml no apparent symptoms, otherwise fit, healthy. Reduced Vit. D intake, moderate reduction in light exposure (outside work). Started Benicar 9 April, 2008; Benicar and Mino 23 April, 2008.
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expate
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 21:35 |
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OK, I don't "get" it. Something's funny here?
*squirms before sending*
*is sure to be embarrassed*
 dette
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Hypervitaminosis D 1,25-D 52 pg/ml, 25-D 38 (4/08), 25-D 34 (8/08), 25-D 29 (10/08), 25-D 14 (3/09), 25-D 15: D3=15, D2<4 (6/09): all ng/ml, started Ph1 7/17/08, Ph2 11/4/08, Ph3 2/18/09. Covered up, but no facemask any longer. NoIRs. Home low light.
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caroldeleah
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Tue Jan 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 57 |
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Posted: Wed Apr 22nd, 2009 23:20 |
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Expate!!
I didn't ask.......because I don't like squirming.....or.....being embarrassed. But.....two's company!.......???
Carol
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Uveitis|HashimotosHypothyroidism|Thyroid Nodule|Arthralgias|RefractiveMyopia|1,25D34| Ph1Aug08|Ph2Nov08|Ph3Jun09|25D 6(02/09)|25D 9(12/08)|Combigan/Cytomel/RefreshPlusSgl/NoIRs
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Debz
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Apr 23rd, 2009 16:18 |
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IJohn McDonald wrote: Dave,
My neuro party started with the first day of phase-3. The last half of phase-2 was pretty much sailing for me, but at wee tiny dust mote doses of the phase-3 abx I had all kinds of cognitive, mood and emotional herxing. I noticed several types of cognitive herxes that would each easily be diagnosible as attention deficit disorder. I also spent a lot of time telling myself that the world as I perceived it just wasn't real. My father also died of Alzheimers at too young an age and it wasn't pretty.
I don't recall so much neuro stuff on phase-2 except for the sluggishness that comes with fatigue and occasional episodes of vocabulary loss. I had a few rage episodes that accompanied too much sun exposure. But on phase-2 I had a significant neuro gain. I used to be about the fastest guy in the conference room. One or two of us would be having our own conference while everyone else was trying to catch up. Over the years my cognition slowed and slowed and I figured, well, it is a young person's game. But one day about 6 months into phase-2 I had that wonderful familiar feeling of fast processing again. Then again a few days later. Eventually these episodes came more frequently and merged, except for the high holy herx days. I pretty much have my youthful fast processing back. It's odd, because in my phase-3 herxes, especially the ADD, I was still processing quickly, but processing wrong.
I have been on phase-3 since September 2006. It hit me so hard that I had to really reduce the abx to control the herx, else by now I might be unemployed and perhaps even single. I know I am better because I can tolerate a lot more antibiotic now, but I still have to carefully ration the dose. I've been wanting to increase it for months but when I experiment with the increase I don't much like the herx. So I am poking along with a just tolerable herx. The one thing that I have definitely gained is calm. Since my early 20's I used to periodically fly into a passionate rage at some imagined or real insult. I used to hate that part of me and wondered what sort of flawed Hitler character I was. But I haven't responded that way to even deliberate slights for many months now. So I think I may be able to keep this neuro improvement. But I still can't play classical piano or leap over tall buildings.
Sorry Dave, I did this on a herx and late at night. I should of addressed it to John.
I started Ph3 a couple of weeks ago, and I found this paragraph so funny!
I do have something exciting to tell! I looked up Nf-kB what Benicar inhibits. On reference #17 I found B Motifs and I looked that up. It stated: "B-3 contains ankyrin repeat motifs and is related to the 1 kappa B-like proteins. Its gene is located at a site of recurrent translocations in a subset of CHRONIC LYMPHOCYTIC LEUKEMIA." I goes on to say "These results have implications for TUMOROGENENESIS and the expression of genes which are REGUALTED BY NF-kappa B, including those of the humanimmunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1). We will see, I learn so much reading the current events section with Marshall, biologists, and others. I know someone with leukemia and drinking to get rid of the pain, and my sister is an alcoholic, so you can imagine how they bounce of each other.
Needless to say I don't go there, but they know where to come for MP.
Debz
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Dx-Sarc(collagen disorder)/Herpes Whitlow 03, Neuro,sinus,Hyster,ear. Mr Muscle-hayfever,acute/chron bronchitis, pneumonia,hilar adenopathy,liver tumor&lesion,lg spleen,strep throat,thrush, psyco Mp:4/8/08 mino & Noirs,4/28/08 benicar
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Phil Schoner
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Wed Jan 25th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 31 |
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Posted: Sat Jun 6th, 2009 16:02 |
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I have been in maximum phase 2 for several months now, and getting very minimal herxing. Carol and I went to see Dr. Blaney in Vancouver in February and he advised me to stay on max phase 2 for several months before going to phase 3. He noticed I had a drooping left eye lid indicative of perhaps neuro issues (???). Anyway, I have taken his advice and am now ready to enter phase 3. I am very aware of the potential neuro issues I might encounter when I add clindy. I will probably start with minimum Zith and Mino and 1/8 Clindy (as opposed to 1/4 Clindy). I might even go to 1/16 Clindy to start. This sounds close to John's "dust mot" level.
Phil
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Phil Schoner, MP Support Spouse, no symptoms, 125D 74 5/08, 25D 16 12/08, 25D 16 7/09, ph1 11/08, ph2 12/08, ph3 7/09
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John McDonald
Administrator
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 02:12 |
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Hi Phil,
I started phase 3 at Benicar Q6h, Z-1/4 (31mg), M-25mg, C-37.5mg (1/4). I think I planned to start with a whole mino and half zith but as I recall your wonderful bride Carol suggested caution. So I started with 25mg of Mino and 1/4 of a Clindy. I wrote this at the end of the first week of MP-3
My first week of Phase 3 wasn't fun. Every day I had malaise, 'nap attacks', renewed light sensitivity, crankiness and difficulty thinking. I had some finger and feet joint pain, but I can cope with that. I found it hard to work last week and my family found me difficult to live with. This week I will cut the zith back to 1/8th and sally forth again. I am pleased to be herxing, but I don't want to crab at my family. I have been on the MP since mid September last year. I am amazed again, on phase 3, how a trifling amount of antibiotic can have such a strong impact.
Two and a half months later at the same dose I wrote this in my journal
You know what engineers don't do well? EMOTIONS. I have not considered quitting the MP so often as I have since starting phase 3.
One year later I was on the same dose. And one year after that, last September 1st, still the same dose. Bloody Hell. And today I am still at 1/4 Z, 50mg M and 1/4 C. All along the 2-1/2 years of phase-3 I have tried higher doses and reverted to lower doses at times. Truth is, it is much, much, much easier for me to manage this baseline dose now. But I still can't sustain 1/2 clindy or even 3/16 clindy for and entire 10-day cycle. My guess is that you will do fine on phase-3, but I have found it challenging.
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Dave L
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 02:39 |
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Hi Phil.
I am taking an MP breather while I recuperate from back surgery on Tuesday, but before last week I was on 150 clindy, 100 mino, and 125 (1/2 tab) Zith. My ostensible herxing was negligible - some leg cramps. My wife believes that my emotions were more fraught than normal when we were in a conflict mode, but on the other hand, I also felt more alert and ambitious too.
John and I and others have speculated that I might have more herxing as my 25D came down. Well, my results are back from my May tests: 17 ng/ml, down from 25 in December.
so maybe prophylactic (i.e. non-symptomatic) folks are not as prone to herxing as are the symptomatic ones.
I'll consult with Dr. Blaney to see when and how I should get back aboard the MP- and then discuss end points. In absence of herxing, how do I know when I am done?
Dave
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Dave Loeks: High 1,25-D (54.2 pg/ml) 25D - 30.4 ng/ml no apparent symptoms, otherwise fit, healthy. Reduced Vit. D intake, moderate reduction in light exposure (outside work). Started Benicar 9 April, 2008; Benicar and Mino 23 April, 2008.
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John McDonald
Administrator
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 03:37 |
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In absence of herxing, how do I know when I am done?
If you can't squeeze any water from the wash cloth even with a 600 pound press, maybe it is dry.
But I also have trouble reconciling that idea with the Human Genome Project's claims about how many non-self cells we carry.
john
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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expate
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 04:19 |
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Speedy recovery, Dave!
 dette
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Hypervitaminosis D 1,25-D 52 pg/ml, 25-D 38 (4/08), 25-D 34 (8/08), 25-D 29 (10/08), 25-D 14 (3/09), 25-D 15: D3=15, D2<4 (6/09): all ng/ml, started Ph1 7/17/08, Ph2 11/4/08, Ph3 2/18/09. Covered up, but no facemask any longer. NoIRs. Home low light.
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Juanita
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Thu May 3rd, 2007 |
| Location: | Alberta Canada |
| Posts: | 529 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 8th, 2009 22:03 |
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how do I know when I am done?
Said with the utmost respect and totally tongue in cheek...... Ask your wife. Ahhahaha!!!
*nods wisely* We notice things.
Good luck with your healing journey from your back surgery, Dave. And congratulations on doing so well with your MP.
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MCS, CFS, FM, CS, DH, stroke neuro, seizures, skin ca, IBS, eczema, irregular heartbeat| NoIR avoid light and D/ On MP 27 months
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Phil Schoner
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Wed Jan 25th, 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 20:59 |
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I am now into phase 3 having added 1/8 clindy to my very tolerable 1/2 Z and 100 mg. Mino. I developed a bad cold with bronchial infection 3 weeks ago and Doc put me on a course of amoxycilan (sp) which seemed to knock it out. I was still in phase 2 during this time. In the last few days I developed what I thought was a severe allergy reaction to pollen in the air here in Grand Teton NP. Went to Clinic today and Doc thought I had a continuation of the earlier cold. He prescribed biaxin and prednisone ( after I refused a Z-pac).
Went to MP site and it seemed to be ok with biaxin, but I am not sure of the prednisone. Also, I am planning to stay on phase 3 during this treatment. I just took the first biaxin and prednisone.
Comments?
Phil
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Phil Schoner, MP Support Spouse, no symptoms, 125D 74 5/08, 25D 16 12/08, 25D 16 7/09, ph1 11/08, ph2 12/08, ph3 7/09
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expate
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 21:08 |
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In Which Odette Learns to Keep Her Mouth Shut.
Last edited on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 23:52 by expate
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Hypervitaminosis D 1,25-D 52 pg/ml, 25-D 38 (4/08), 25-D 34 (8/08), 25-D 29 (10/08), 25-D 14 (3/09), 25-D 15: D3=15, D2<4 (6/09): all ng/ml, started Ph1 7/17/08, Ph2 11/4/08, Ph3 2/18/09. Covered up, but no facemask any longer. NoIRs. Home low light.
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John McDonald
Administrator
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 21:08 |
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Phil - A wise woman known to you once said that if on MP, she had a bad hangover, that she might suspect herxing before alcohol. In your shoes I would cut my abx dose first and substantially, before taking any other meds, to see if my 'allergy' cleared. It might be an allergy but if it isn't, if it is a herx, then you are working at cross purposes with the prednisone.
john
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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Phil Schoner
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 21:24 |
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The risk in cutting my abx's to see if the cold/allergy/bronchial infection clears is the time I loose before attacking the infection if it proves real. Would you still go this route? How long would you wait before deciding that it ain't going away?
Phil
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Phil Schoner, MP Support Spouse, no symptoms, 125D 74 5/08, 25D 16 12/08, 25D 16 7/09, ph1 11/08, ph2 12/08, ph3 7/09
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Phil Schoner
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 22:00 |
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OK, after some thought I will stop the clindy (which preceeded the cold/chest infection by a few days), continue on 1/2 Z and 100 Mino as I had been for 3+ months before the addition of Clindy, and during which time I had no herxing to speak of, discontinue the prednisone, and add the prescribed biaxin, which Trever seemed to be ok with. This cycle of Z ends in 6 days, at which time I will assess the situation.
thanks for the input.
Phil
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Phil Schoner, MP Support Spouse, no symptoms, 125D 74 5/08, 25D 16 12/08, 25D 16 7/09, ph1 11/08, ph2 12/08, ph3 7/09
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John McDonald
Administrator
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Posted: Wed Jun 17th, 2009 22:08 |
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The risk in cutting my abx's to see if the cold/allergy/bronchial infection clears is the time I loose before attacking the infection if it proves real. Would you still go this route? How long would you wait before deciding that it ain't going away?
It is all gut hunch stuff. You may already be on the right track. You are the one living inside your skin and the rest of us can only guess at what you feel.
As my personal opinion I think prednisone is a great product for situations where you might drown from a lung infection before other measures fix the true root cause. It was said to be very good for SARs patients to stablize them. I am guessing that if doc gives you steroids for your allergies then doc isn't thinking there is a cure for your allergies, just a hammer of a treatment. But if it saves you from drowning...
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RA 125D38, MP 9/05 Ph2 12/05 Ph3 09/06, Oct07 2510, NoIRs lite exp r/t work covered up
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