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thelymelight
Member in Phase 1
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Posted: Sun Sep 7th, 2008 00:10 |
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Hi Folks,
My Dr. doesn't seem to keen on prescribing either Valium or narcotics should I need them, once I start herxing on the abx. He said that once you get on narcotics (I think he said morphine in particular) you will never get off them..and that you will require a higher dose, each time you go thru a herx and need them, thus you will be addicted before you know it.
He is an environmental dr. so seems to avoid certain types of meds altogether...
What are people's experience with pain meds (narcotics) and valium?
Has anyone experienced these problems?
Cheers
~ Lisa 
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Lyme, Babs, Myco,17+ yrs, neuro-psych-cogni|125-D Sep08/30.42; 25D/8.40, Jul08/11.6, May08/18.0, Nov07/19.6| Beni Feb08, Low lux-some areas of home;NoIR's, hat, gloves & zinc ox. MEDS:Hydrocortisone 0.50mg/day, Cipralex 10mg.
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TrishOBrien
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Sep 7th, 2008 05:26 |
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Hi, Lisa,
I guess it could depend on the specific narcotic and I am certainly not a medical expert, so this is just my experience.
I have been prescribed vicodin. I was very worried about getting addicted to it and maybe that healthy fear has helped. I use it periodically if I have a really bad herx day, but I am definitely not addicted and have not had to increase my dosage to maintain effectiveness (in fact, I only take 1/2 pill most of the time). I most often take ibuprofen for the day to day normal level herx pain and I save the vicodin for unmanageable times.
Trish
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CFS arthralgia migraines RLS chills mouth sores swollen glands paresthesia 125D68 ibuprofen Vicodin Ph1May06 NoIRs lite exp r/t commute low lux home 25D?
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carol
Advocate
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Posted: Mon Sep 8th, 2008 05:19 |
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Hi Lisa:
I could never have lasted through 4 years of serious IP without vicodin for pain. I have taken as many as 5 vicodin ES a day, for long periods of time. When I don’t have pain, I have NO DESIRE to take pain medication. I have never seen any indication that I have built up a tolerance for vicodin and I much prefer a nice glass of red wine if I want a “recreational drug”.
Occasional 2 mg valium has also helped me with muscle cramping and pain. This is an “on label” use for this drug. I only take this “as needed” (which is rarely).
Like Trish, I am speaking from personal experience here. I have to assume that some people do get “hooked” on pain medication, but I have to admit I don’t understand this at all. It does not fit with my experience.
I had 2 children without any pain medication. I couldn’t see the point. I mention this only to reinforce the point that I am not a “pain wimp”.
When you have a disease that produces significant pain, and you embark on treatment with the MP, you must be prepared for the possibility that you will experience more pain, and adequate treatment of this pain, IMO, can be CRITICAL to sticking with the treatment.
I think your doctor is not being reasonable.
Carol
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rheumatoid arthritis dx '96...started MP 8/11/04...initial D tests (7/11/04): 25-D=32; 1,25-D=65...phase 2 started 12/6/04...phase 3 started 2/26/06...vicodin & valium as needed for pain...last 25-D=9 (5/08)
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Michele MBK
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Fri Jan 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
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Posted: Wed Sep 10th, 2008 21:44 |
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Hi Lisa,
Within the first 5 months of my RA dx, I tried a lot fo different pain relievers. Trammadol, vicodin, tylenol, relafen, and a few others. After I realized RA was for a very long haul in life, I started rotating them a bit. I think, my body became reliant on Trammadol after a few days. I did experience a withdrawal from it...or maybe it was just intense flaring. I have not experienced that with vicodin. Trammadol, for me, also lost it's efficacy quickly, it took more Trammadol to cover pain after a few days until I was up to the top dose.
I always started with the lowest possible dose. When I'm not in much pain, I just deal. More pain...start with 1/2 dose. I never took a full dose because it made me feel sick. When my pain got incredibly bad, and the top doses weren't helping, doc prescribed percoset...something that I just decided I was not going to try. Too addictive. That's when I started praying Benicar would be my friend and knew I was going to move to MP. Thank goodness it is!
My experience is similar to Carol's, I don't have an addictive personality trait, and have no mental or physical desire for vicodin or any other substance except popcorn.  Now I take only 1/2 a dose of vicodin after failing a 20 mg sublingual Benicar. I know of one lady on another support board who really became addicted to vicodin and prednisone, so it is possible. I sought help from a pain management clinic and it is really important to manage your pain...so I hope you have found someone to help you.
Unlike Carol, I did not birth my babies without pain medicine!!!  (It was a twin delivery and a c-section.)
Michele
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RA 125D30 D2516 Ambien Elavil Vicodin low lux home NoIRS cover up Ph1May08
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thelymelight
Member in Phase 1
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Posted: Wed Sep 10th, 2008 22:46 |
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Thanks ladies for your perspective on things....This has been really helpful....I don't know how my Dr. expects me to get thru the intense pain w/out taking anything. ..I am not an addictive type person either and probably would have to take less than a normal dose anyways, as I am so sensitive to medications.
Well if my G.P and my Lyme Dr. won't prescribe me anything, I will ask to be referred to a pain specialist/clinic..
Lisa ..
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Lyme, Babs, Myco,17+ yrs, neuro-psych-cogni|125-D Sep08/30.42; 25D/8.40, Jul08/11.6, May08/18.0, Nov07/19.6| Beni Feb08, Low lux-some areas of home;NoIR's, hat, gloves & zinc ox. MEDS:Hydrocortisone 0.50mg/day, Cipralex 10mg.
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Aunt Diana
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Sep 11th, 2008 03:32 |
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I am new at "pain medication" other than Advil that I used to pop like tic-tacs just to be able to get through a day.
A year ago I had a terrible herx and was in such pain my doc prescribed oxycodone. At first I was afraid of it because of what I had heard about it. But my own experience has been very positive. It is a wonderful painkiller and really makes a difference in my ablility to live a normal life. I feel absolutely no high or any thing even like it....I feel nothing except the absence of the pain.
In fact, I now think it was too bad that I didn't know about this earlier, I would have saved myself a lot of suffering.
Lately, because there has been some legal battle going on in the industry it has not been possible to get the generic oxycodone and the other is too expensive. So I am now using hydrocodone which I need to take every 6 hours. It works as well and I find I am using less and less of it as I proceed through the protocol. I never have a craving for more of it and I can do without it nicely when my pain is minimal.
If you follow the instructions, and use the medication as it is intended, I don't think there is a problem. If you crush it and snort it or whatever it is that they do....then that's a problem and you are playing with fire. But for palliation when you have real pain....it has been a Godsend for me.
People have been known to abuse all sorts of things.....I don't think it's the substance...it's the person using the substance.
that's my opinion.
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Lyme 1987, neuro cardio fatigue achiness brain fog depression, anxiety. Pacemaker, D.1,25 32; D <5; 12/07 <6, Oxycodone, advil p/n, darvoocett p/n, lorazapam, ambien, benedryl, zantac, magnesium, colase, Noirs, cover-up or avoid sun, house <30l
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Michele MBK
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Fri Jan 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
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Posted: Thu Sep 11th, 2008 04:23 |
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Diana,
Interesting about hearing of your experience with oxycodone. I'm glad you found something that works!!. Is vicodin a combination of tylenol and oxycodone? I will ask doc on Friday. I wonder this because tylenol has never really helped any previous headache or flu or illness pain I've had pre-RA. I've always been an Advil person...but for chronic use that's tough on the stomach! If oxycodone is what is really relieving my breakthrough herx pain out of the vicodin, I'd rather skip the tylenol portion to give my liver less "unnecessary" toxins to filter and receive only the benefit of the pain relief.
Some abuse with "vicodin" showed up in our local HS football team when one team member tapped into a resource at a home medicine cabinet and the boys were taking vicodin to be able to "take the hits" on the field with less pain. Now there is a true abuse of the medicine.
Michele
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RA 125D30 D2516 Ambien Elavil Vicodin low lux home NoIRS cover up Ph1May08
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marion villa
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Sep 12th, 2008 21:47 |
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I´m sad because there is no oxycodone in mexico anymore... thay banned this out because the drug addiction some people have. I can´t buy it even with a special prescription.
But what about people that really need to deal with severe pain!! cancer or like us!! not fair
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Lupus, RA, erythema nosodum, skin ulcers, MP 11/07, voltaren, paracetamol advil, almagato,Tylex w/codeine, NoIRs, limited outings covered up,Ph 2 started 20 april 2008, 25D<4ng
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Over-Heated in PHX
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 82 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 00:36 |
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Hey, I'm a little off-topic and would never encourage anyone to assume this conjecture of mine to be true...
I was frankly very addicted to COFFEE before the MP, many times tried to quit and couldn't! In fact, had to drink coffee sometimes to SLEEP! outrageous I know Once it was learned that we needed to stop coffee as it interferes due to some acid in it that messes up the protocol in some way, I did, and was amazed! The cravings were gone! I am wondering why some people become addicted to certain things, and if maybe (long shot conjecture by OH..) possibly.. the MP is going to help cure addiction.
Lisa, it's just a thought, not advice!
Still, H in PHX
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Lyme Babesia hypothyroid OSA OA FM Morgellon's Uterine Fibroids 125D61 25D16 Ph2Jan08| Daily: Lyrica, Levothroid; and Aleve, Anacin or Lodine XL; Loratadine| (NoIRs 2% outdoor&computer use, low lux home, homebound, limited outings covered up &Keto
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AK Teri
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 07:18 |
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Michelle - Early on in the MP for me, my doctor prescribed Hydrocodone which did not help the joint pain at all for me in Phase 1 & 2. I was dealing with 9 months of near frozen shoulders. Since early in Phase 2, I have taken Oxycodone 5-325APAP with better effect. (the 5 stands for 5mg of Oxycodone; 325APAP is 325mg of acetaminophen) I did not take it daily in Phase 2, but now I take one most mornings as the heavy joint pain has moved to my lower body in Phase 3. On days with high herx or travel, I have taken 2-3 per day.
My doctors advise is to take as much as I need, but not more that I need. Only I know what pain is tolerable.
Hydrocodone is simply a generic form of Vicodin.
Oxycodone is also a narcotic (opioid) like Hydrocodone, but it is stronger and can be more addictive according to my doctor. Oxycontin, the time released form of Oxycodone, is highly addictive and when crushed gives the high street addicts are looking for.
Thats the simple explanation my dr gave me between the drugs. I am sure someone can expand upon that.
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RA Jun07 D12560 D2535 (Aug07) D2513 (Nov07) D2515 (Apr08) Ph1Aug 07 ModPh2Nov07 Ph2Jan08 NoIRs cover up daily lite exp w/kids
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Mon Sep 25th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 1007 |
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 20:07 |
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I am not someone who is able to take most pain killers (I have problems will all the basics--aspirin, tylenol, and ibuprophen--and anything that is combined with any of them, and Trammadol loses its efficacy in a matter of days).
However, what I have found what best dampens my immune response (and therefore pain) is an apple. Sometimes I only need 1/2 apple. (We are allowed up to one apple a day...ingestion is limited because like coffee it is an immune modulator.) Of course, consuming an apple (the skin in particular) does not simply mask pain; it actually dampens the immune system and so I can see why someone might prefer pain killers if s/he can take them.
Also, as for many fibro-type pain symptoms, I have found ice to be a great pain reducer (not always, but it is in my toolbox and it is great when it works), particularly if I ice the bottoms of my feet (using a gel pack). I don't understand why icing the bottoms of my feet works, but it does. (When icing the bottom of my feet does't work, then I ice the specific areas that are causing me the most trouble.)
I have hydromorphone and trammadol on hand to take here or there for real emergencies (when pain reaches intolerable levels) even if I cannot take either for more than a few days at a time.
Food for thought, er, pain. ClaireLast edited on Sun Sep 14th, 2008 20:10 by eClaire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2 - 5/25/08 Ph 2 10/29/2008
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Chris
Advocate
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Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 22:28 |
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OH,
Drinking coffee just before bedtime ... my wife could never understand how that worked for me, but it did.
I've found that at times during the MP, my need for coffee has totally gone away. If I do make a cup in the morning, I leave it half full, as it just stops tasting good. The current abx combo brought back both the taste for coffee, and the need for coffee to clear the morning cobwebs. However, today, for the first time in a while, I found the cup half full at 5PM on the desk in my home office.
I think as sciences absorbs the Marshall Pathenogensis, we'll find that a lot of bad habits or addictions are just self-medication attempts. Except for chocolate. And ice-cream. And coffee-chocolate ice-cream.
Chris
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sarcoid since 1983 (or much earlier), MP since summer 2004 Chris' story
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Michele MBK
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Fri Jan 4th, 2008 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
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Posted: Mon Sep 15th, 2008 01:33 |
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AK T Thanks for explaining the differences. I unfortunately forgot to discuss this with my doctor Friday. We had plenty of other things to chat about.
Claire, now we know where the saying "an apple a day keeps the doctor away," comes from. It makes people "feel" better.
Chris, Chocolate ALWAYS makes me happy!!! Your commentary made me chuckle. Since I now have to get up in an MP haze, I do drink coffee again. Anything to become cognizant enough to get my kids to school and then teach my own students! Now chocolate and coffee together...ah...I used to do that on Sundays...coffee with cream and some Hershey's syrup. It's been a long time since I've done that! My waistline just got too out of hand with the Starbucks mocha latte's too. Now it's coffee with D free whole organic milk.
It's time for my dessert...dark chocolate, here I come! yum!
Michele
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RA 125D30 D2516 Ambien Elavil Vicodin low lux home NoIRS cover up Ph1May08
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Over-Heated in PHX
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 82 |
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Posted: Tue Sep 16th, 2008 03:50 |
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Hey Chris and Michele!
An entire cohort with a single mantra: Coffee-chocolate Ice Cream.. of course we will all be good and purchase the no sugar brand, eliminating the triple scoop special for these darn beasties! And don't forget some whipped cream.
Chris, you also brought up and interesting point, the TASTE for coffee changes along with the cravings. The same happened to me! ..I also found that I could drink the coffee substitutes now and enjoy their flavor. Strange. I use to think those tasted yucky, the kind made from some kind of grain, (slips my mind right now what that grain is). Anyway, it's nice to have a cup of something resembling coffee for comfort.
I guess I will let this topic thread drift back on topic now!
H in PHX
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Lyme Babesia hypothyroid OSA OA FM Morgellon's Uterine Fibroids 125D61 25D16 Ph2Jan08| Daily: Lyrica, Levothroid; and Aleve, Anacin or Lodine XL; Loratadine| (NoIRs 2% outdoor&computer use, low lux home, homebound, limited outings covered up &Keto
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marion villa
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Sep 17th, 2008 16:18 |
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I miss icecream without yolk!!!!
and let me tell al you: when I got extreme herxing, my beloved cofee used to smell sooo badly!
not anymore, but I stood out of cofee completely about 4 months
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Lupus, RA, erythema nosodum, skin ulcers, MP 11/07, voltaren, paracetamol advil, almagato,Tylex w/codeine, NoIRs, limited outings covered up,Ph 2 started 20 april 2008, 25D<4ng
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emelja
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sat Sep 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Union, Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 16:29 |
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I read all the posts at this site about pain meds being addictive, however the title also mentioned Valium. I didn't see any posts about addiction to Valium. I am blessed in that I don't have pain from my herxing - at least haven't had, but I do have dizziness a lot with herxing and Valium is the only drug that seems to stop the dizziness. I don't take it regularly, like 4 times a day, but I do take it at night - 3 mg. I don't believe I am addicted to it because I don't find myself craving it and there are many times when I think I might be feeling dizzy, I just tough it out, and of course, I take the extra Benicar which I am sure helps the situation greatly without my feeling it. If I have a headache or muscle pain, I am able to just take Extra strength Tylenol and it seems to help. The MP Internet sites are such wonderful resources aren't they.
Mary Jackson
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Lyme, Meniere's, hearing loss, tinnitus, 125D26, calcium, Tylenol, Valium, NoIRs, limited outings covered up, low lux home, 25D39 Oct 07 25D 20 Mar 08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Oct 16th, 2008 21:11 |
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Mary,
The only way to know if you are addicted to a drug is to try and (slowly) phase out its use.
Some drugs, like Benicar, you cannot really phase out because it is providing benefit for you, and you lose that benefit when you stop using it. Thus, not all addiction is a bad thing, as long as you understand fully how the drug affects you.
3mg is actually quite a high dose for Valium - I used to find that when I was ill, just 1mg was all I needed to relax my muscles. So it wouldn't hurt to drop the dose a little and check to see what it is doing. It can affect the immune system profoundly, and those who are addicted to the benzos do recover more slowly. You should be able to use a benzo intermittently, every few days, to cope with a specific problem.
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emelja
Member in Phase 2
| Joined: | Sat Sep 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Union, Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 60 |
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Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 18:03 |
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Dear Dr. Marshall, Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question about Valium. Can you answer another one? Why does a person taking it seem to recover more slowly? The only reason I take it is because it is the only med I have found that will effectively stop a vertigo episode in its tracks. And, I do have an anxiety about those vertigo epiisodes. They are nasty! I haven't had a really bad one in 3 years, but have had some very close calls in the past year, and Valium was the only thing that really stopped them from becoming full blown. That means even though I do take some every day, I don't always take it every 6 hrs or even every 12 hrs. most of the time just once a day, and I have used as little as 1 mg. Thanks again for your help.
Mary Jackson
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Lyme, Meniere's, hearing loss, tinnitus, 125D26, calcium, Tylenol, Valium, NoIRs, limited outings covered up, low lux home, 25D39 Oct 07 25D 20 Mar 08
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